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Will 2021 see a new pistol buy?

Will the CAF's new pistol be a:

  • the new US service pistol, the Sig Sauer P320 (M17/M18)?

    Votes: 7 43.8%
  • the British version of the Glock 17?

    Votes: 3 18.8%
  • a Beretta APX?

    Votes: 1 6.3%
  • a Canadian designed Black Creek Labs PX17?

    Votes: 3 18.8%
  • a Norinco?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • something else?

    Votes: 2 12.5%

  • Total voters
    16
  • Poll closed .

lenaitch

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- it was part of the modernization where they were theoretically moving towards having three blocks of pistol skills that added on each other and culminated, but it never actually materialized,

The current course of fire is well under a mag if I’m doing the math in my head- but there is a skills portion where they shoot as well, a couple dozen rounds but it’s not pass fail

I’m getting married this week so I don’t have access to my FG’s to refer to actual rounds,

Is your agency course of fire something you’d put here? Just the stages?
Congrats!
 

KevinB

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This is awesome thanks. I may run the boys through this on some downtime I have coming up. We re running a massive combined units scenario.

The qual being “light” doesn’t mean that they don’t shoot. It’s the few rounds for the qual but they also have skills sessions- that aren’t pass/fail REALLY. Like shooting on the move or turns etc.
Understood - the reason why I like larger round count quals is you can't really game it. Plus you can incorporate a lot of skills into the qual - that otherwise often don't get practiced unless the member is a civilian gun enthusiast on the side.

For LE I believe there must be a Shot/NoShoot decision in a Qual both day and night - hitting a NS is an automatic fail.
I am really not a fan of most LE qual targets - the photo realistic ones are a lot better (and you can put various objects in their hands - so what a Threat - No Threat is isn't the same.
You can put the qual target on the rear of it with spray glue - and have the scoring zones clearly defined to the scorer not shooter.

People are passing their quals though- and that’s something that wasn’t happening a few years ago.

What I have observed, and this is three agencies that use the old RCMP course of fire that needed reliable shooting at 25m.

Officers brought up under the new standards, with no 25m, look at shooting at 25m and beyond they think it’s not doable consistently. We do exposures at 25m, 35m, 50m I’ve demo’d reliable hits at 100 and 120 but it’s just not mentally there.
Years ago (pre 9-11) I did a Sniper Course with a Large Canadian LE Entity - they would shoot way further than allowed by Dept policy - simply to give the shooter additional confidence in their ability/equipment when the time came.

I used to shoot Huns Heads with the BHP at 100m at Connaught - it took a lot of time (and coaching and ammo) for me to be able to do it reliably - I think a 50yd Body Shot should be well within the realm of realism for LE training - and inside 15m an A Zone head
I think perhaps we were trying to strike a balance between skills and marksmanship and we missed it slightly. But we re tweaking it.
I did the Vegas Metro SWAT Course a few years ago as art of my teams ERT - they have been really working on the "gunfighting" aspect to their shooting program across the entire agency - they had some issues with some CoF had shoot 2 and holster - and found officers where doing exactly that in gunfights - so altered their program considerably.
And to give us some credit- I did a municipal police services carbine quals and created a package for a rail agency and they were lagging behind us, awesome people, and they put in work, but it was an eye opener as someone who would rag on my own agency

I’ve worked with some godly shooters in this outfit. I’m only reliable and it’s through practice I maintain myself- but it’s not like we don’t have a ton of institutional knowledge and a few people on loan from even more talented places,
Pressure to raise a standard is never a bad thing - as long as it's a realistic standard - you can't expect someone allocated 500 or 1000rds a year for training will be able to make a standard designed for someone who gets 70k plus.
So I keep the faith.

Now going back to CAP years ago- I remember the pistol qual being quite poor. I would suggest it was more akin to a famil than a skills adoption. And the Navy Sig qual was not much better (at the time)

Is their, in common army, tiers of pistol shooting quals? I would think it would get the least attention in most cases
You can always use the old Unit Qual
It's not called the Humbler for nothing ;)
 

Haggis

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Is your agency course of fire something you’d put here? Just the stages?
Our recruit course of fire is the same one used by the RCMP at Depot. Our in-service for officers is very close to the RCMP Instructor level course of fire, but with slightly more liberal timings.
 

Booter

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Ah. I know your agency then I believe.

Is yours going to be making some changes soon? On the Horizon yet?
 

brihard

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Our recruit course of fire is the same one used by the RCMP at Depot. Our in-service for officers is very close to the RCMP Instructor level course of fire, but with slightly more liberal timings.
The old RCMP course of fire (5 stage), or one of the newer iterations from the past five years?

RCMP shooting was very marksmanship focused for a long time. There was lip service paid to stoppages and such, and a very basic level of proficiency achieved, but it wasn’t fighting with a gun.

After Mayerthorpe, the carbine program accelerated… Sadly not in time for Moncton. But in any case, the carbine program, once finally rolled out, came with a decent package. I believe Millbrook had a hand in its design, though of course as a five day course that started with the assumption a shooter had never handled a semiautomatic rifle before, it only took things so far. Still, it was fighting with a gun. After that, they then turned to the pistol program and rebuilt it from the ground up. It’s not too bad. Recognize that a reality the RCMP faces is the need to train and requalify members literally anywhere. Any qual must be shootable in a gravel pit with zero amenities. Most Mounties will get a training shoot once or twice a year, and a requal.

The annual qualification scored portion is much shorter and closer than it used to be. It’s based off a couple things. One is a no BS assessment of what police shootings normally look like. They’re usually close and quick. The qual focuses on a fast close engagement and 100% round accountability. However, part 2 of the qual, which changes each year, is a dynamic training portion that the member must safely complete, but that’s designed to get them comfortable with combat shooting. Again, bear in mind that they may only on the range a couple times a year. Part of the thinking is that in the old 5 stage qual, inevitably one or two people would have to reshoot every. Effing. Stage. Meanwhile another ten members sit there for much of a day picking their noses. The new approach results in a lot more range time and rounds downrange. It’s a far cry from ideal, but police forces tend not to have an overabundance of operational bodies, and unlike CAF, every workday is generally operational, with training an uncommon exception. Every bit of training for operational members takes members off the road or out from active investigative work.

My recollection from CAF (released two years ago), and going off 14 years PRes including a Kandahar tour- our pistol training was super limited. It appeared briefly in my DP2A Infantry Platoon Support Weapons course, and then again on my DP3A Small Arms Instructor course. We also shot it a bit on predeployment training. But nobody with much of a clue taught me pistol until I did my Urban Ops Instructor course. We got a solid week with the Browning, led by a dude who was scary good with handguns. That was the first time I ever began to develop any real confidence with a handgun.

I’ve since qualified as a pistol instructor for my organization, though I never ended up in a full time training unit- I got offered that gig on a Wednesday and then while mulling it offer, was offered a different gig that appealed to me stronger, so any of my pistol teaching on the policing side has been as an occasional augmented instructor. I can’t process any true expertise. I can help a beginner shooter become decent, and a decent shooter become a bit safer and a bit more likely to win a fight each time we go to the range. But I’m not one of those guys who achieves wizardry on the line. I remain much more effective and zoned-in with a C8 than a handgun.
 

Haggis

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The old RCMP course of fire (5 stage), or one of the newer iterations from the past five years?
Recruits do the 5 stage/50 round "old" RCMP one. In service members do the new one mentioned above.
The annual qualification scored portion is much shorter and closer than it used to be. It’s based off a couple things. One is a no BS assessment of what police shootings normally look like. They’re usually close and quick. The qual focuses on a fast close engagement and 100% round accountability.
Same with us. Because our new one is so simple and easy to score (and the scoring is unforgiving) I can run the a full course of fire from Load to Unload in 12 1/2 minutes with no reshoots or unplanned stoppages (which, if cleared correctly, entitle the shooter to a "do over" of that stage if they were unable to finish all their rounds).
However, part 2 of the qual, which changes each year, is a dynamic training portion that the member must safely complete, but that’s designed to get them comfortable with combat shooting. Again, bear in mind that they may only on the range a couple times a year. Part of the thinking is that in the old 5 stage qual, inevitably one or two people would have to reshoot every. Effing. Stage. Meanwhile another ten members sit there for much of a day picking their noses. The new approach results in a lot more range time and rounds downrange.
Same with us. But thanks to COVID, our first year of this training model ran two years just to catch everyone up. The "developmental" session runs between 200-350 rounds, with lots of opportunity to fine tune weaknesses in what's being taught. I really like running those sessions.
 

Booter

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I guess we ll see the round counts over the next few years. They are trending down, and are artificially high because during modernization we were firing hundreds more during the adoption of new manipulations.

I’m hard pressed to think of an average member that’s getting three days shooting annually

I’m currently addressing a divisions needs for shooting, including austere ranges, and that doesn’t match any numbers.

Which data and which stage of the new course of fire do you think addresses a real gun fight? I hear that a lot. Including from program holders but I don’t get good answers. (Besides fast and close- the timings/facings/ rounds delivered aren’t correct)

I appreciate your considerable experience Bri. But the coming off duty to qual and how that’s a drain…The need to qual in it’s present form for 24 years I think. It’s mis management that creates that issue, not necessity. It’s sheer willpower by you and others that moves that along in any successful form.

Haggis around 2014, plus or minus or year, we’re you a ppsi that was given the update by the Mounties? I believe the first portion was just a ppsi user course where they took a cross section of BSOs for the new scenarios

I’m trying to see if I’ve met you
 
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Booter

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And I just realized this was the army pistol thread. I apologize for the hard right. PM if you’d like
 

Colin Parkinson

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This gives you the price that the US paid and some idea of why the US went with the M17 instead.

 

KevinB

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This gives you the price that the US paid and some idea of why the US went with the M17 instead.

Yet it misses why a requirement for a 35k round pistol bought the Sig, when the USSS and FBI with a 20k and 15k round requirement respectively bought Glock when the Sig’s fell parts between 10-15k rounds.
It also misses the FBI testimony to GOA on why the Sig is a miserable turd.

SOCOM is still buying Glock 19’s when they could get service common M17 and M18 for free…
Might be a clue ;)
 

KevinB

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So, the High Point is safe from ND's then? :ROFLMAO:
Actually I think they go when they should stop, and stop when they should go.
The fact they are still in business says a lot of for the intelligence of their average buyer, mind you I suspect 99% of them are straw purchase buys. I've never known anyone to intentionally buy one.
 

Haggis

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10-15,000 rds, that at least 25 years of service in your average Canadian unit.....
I'm closing in on 10K through my three year old P320. COVID slowed me down a lot or I'd be well beyond that by now.

I have no idea how many rounds have gone through my 76 year old FN High Power. 😲
 

Colin Parkinson

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I'm closing in on 10K through my three year old P320. COVID slowed me down a lot or I'd be well beyond that by now.

I have no idea how many rounds have gone through my 76 year old FN High Power. 😲
I know top level IPSC shooters burn through 40,000 rds a year just to stay competitive. that's $6-12,000 on reloaded ammunition alone.
 

KevinB

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I know top level IPSC shooters burn through 40,000 rds a year just to stay competitive. that's $6-12,000 on reloaded ammunition alone.
I can reload 9mm for about $0.15 (plus time) at over 600rds an hour on my Dillion XL650.
But I hate picking up brass, so I generally shoot factory - if you buy it by the 50,000s it's not that much more money.
 
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