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Ukraine - Superthread

Kirkhill

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Amazing what can be accomplished when there is a distinct sense of purpose present…

Tell me again…WHY does it take us a month (almost the same timeframe) just to have recruits marching in a uniform they can wear properly, while able to properly handle a C7?

(Rhetorical)

What would you do with them if they signed for three years but were trained in 5 weeks?
 

MilEME09

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With all due respect to trainers and trainees in our system, we’re training soldiers who may go into battle at some point, as opposed to UKR training troops who will be going into battle tout suite. One group has the luxury of “could be” as opposed to the other having “WILL” be - and soon.
Exactly, it's give them everything possible they need to survive in combat. Is drill needed? No, laws of armed conflict? Yes, shooting? Yes, how to write a memo? No

Cut the fluff out and give then only what they need to fight and survuce cause the reality is that some of the troops we are training aren't going to see their next birthday.
 

Kirkhill

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Exactly, it's give them everything possible they need to survive in combat. Is drill needed? No, laws of armed conflict? Yes, shooting? Yes, how to write a memo? No

Cut the fluff out and give then only what they need to fight and survuce cause the reality is that some of the troops we are training aren't going to see their next birthday.

So for the reservist?

5 weeks training on joining
Return to civilian life
Show up at armouries for lectures and powerpoints
Use ranges when available
10 day refresher every summer
Reduce the number of refreshers with age.
 

KevinB

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So for the reservist?

5 weeks training on joining
Return to civilian life
Show up at armouries for lectures and powerpoints
Use ranges when available
10 day refresher every summer
Reduce the number of refreshers with age.
What do you expect them to be doing - that dictates the amount and time of refreshers needed.
Not wanting to derail this thread perhaps it's best moved to a different thread.
 

KevinB

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Have seen various versions of this clip. With the camera angle cuts and lack of footage (that I have seen) of the prone soldiers being deliberately shot (vs crossfire/instinctive aim rounds off intended target and ricochets) I call BS on the headline and assumption.

Anyone found the OP of the original claim of a war crime and tracked its origin? Where are the photos of the rest of the dead squad? I only see the shooter who fell back out of sunlight into the hut.

There are undoubtedly better video collators and analysers than me - however with a section at close range all edgy and onguard suddenly coming under fire, there are going to be triggers pulled instintively then aim corrected. That is WAR not a war crime. A war crime would be the deliberate targeted shooting of the surrendered.

But then again, opinion of a leg not a lawyer.
Foolhardy Russian sentences his squad mates to death:


I think you where both agreeing -
there is a larger section of the video - the videographer I think was the one shot by the Russian, but the PKM gunner overwatching I think got some of the intermediary RuAF personnel as well

The only crime was the RuAF trying to bluff a surrender - and they paid the price.
 

Kirkhill

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What do you expect them to be doing - that dictates the amount and time of refreshers needed.
Not wanting to derail this thread perhaps it's best moved to a different thread.

What does it take to keep them engaged? Motivated? Wanting to contribute? In the Canadian context, where we can't seem to find reasons to keep them employed keeping them engaged seems equally important if not moreso.
 

MilEME09

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What does it take to keep them engaged? Motivated? Wanting to contribute? In the Canadian context, where we can't seem to find reasons to keep them employed keeping them engaged seems equally important if not moreso.
Yes but we are talking the Ukrainian context, these troops are literally going to be in the shit non stop for atleast a year or more depending in how this war goes. Unnecessary training that isn't needed for warfighting can be done after the war.
 

TacticalTea

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I seem to have misread your intent. It seemed, posted with no comment towards either bias, as if you were amplifying a dubious claim to push a Russian narrative. Apologies.
All good. I thought ''Foolhardy Russian sentences his squad mates to death'' was explicit enough wrt what I thought of his actions and their consequences. I suppose it can be read differently.
 

Kirkhill

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Yes but we are talking the Ukrainian context, these troops are literally going to be in the shit non stop for atleast a year or more depending in how this war goes. Unnecessary training that isn't needed for warfighting can be done after the war.

My thought is to get all the "necessary" training done early in the career - ie during Basic - all the "unnecessary" training, and advanced training - can be added later, with as much as possible being done in lectures and webinars in the armouries.
 

brihard

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Foolhardy Russian sentences his squad mates to death:

Have seen various versions of this clip. With the camera angle cuts and lack of footage (that I have seen) of the prone soldiers being deliberately shot (vs crossfire/instinctive aim rounds off intended target and ricochets) I call BS on the headline and assumption.

Anyone found the OP of the original claim of a war crime and tracked its origin? Where are the photos of the rest of the dead squad? I only see the shooter who fell back out of sunlight into the hut.

There are undoubtedly better video collators and analysers than me - however with a section at close range all edgy and onguard suddenly coming under fire, there are going to be triggers pulled instintively then aim corrected. That is WAR not a war crime. A war crime would be the deliberate targeted shooting of the surrendered.

But then again, opinion of a leg not a lawyer.
The War Crime is actually the false surrender.


The obvious war crime here is called “perfidy”- or in the Rome Statute, “treacherously killing or wounding an enemy”.

The essence of this war crime is that a person abuses the laws of war, by causing an enemy to believe they were obligated to act humanely, such as accepting a surrender, or tending to a casualty. That belief is then treacherously used to wound or kill them. Pretending to surrender and then attacking by surprise is a perfect example; because the victims are compelled to act humanely, they’re tactically disadvantaged.

The moment of taking prisoners is one of the riskiest situations troops can face, for reasons seen here. It’s essential that the right to surrender is protected for all parties in a conflict, hence making this a crime.

It’s horrible that it ended the way it did. We don’t have video of the whole thing, but it looks like there was a prone machine gunner and several standing troops. They would not have known what was coming out behind the Russian who shot and would have reasonably perceived a thread from the other Russians given then one of them abused the circumstances of surrender to attack them (killing a Ukrainian, I believe). It’a not clear if all the probed out Russians were killed; certainly several were.
 

Kirkhill

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I wonder what the dynamics are like in a coerced army which operates with political officers and kills people who retreat.
 

Skysix

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I wonder what the dynamics are like in a coerced army which operates with political officers and kills people who retreat.
Red on Red 1.0

There are also an increasing number of fragged officers who could probably tell us (Red on Red 2.0)
 

Kirkhill

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What do you expect them to be doing - that dictates the amount and time of refreshers needed.
Not wanting to derail this thread perhaps it's best moved to a different thread.

Trying to accommodate Kevin - a return to Ukraine

A British forces appreciation of what might be happening on the Kinburn Peninsula.


And a private French take

 

The Bread Guy

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Ukraine's President's latest 10-point "peace formula" (archived link if previous link doesn't work) ...
... The first is radiation and nuclear safety

(...)

The second challenge is food security.

(...)

The third is energy security.

(...)

The fourth challenge is the release of all prisoners and deportees.

(...)

The fifth – implementation of the UN Charter and restoration of Ukraine’s territorial integrity and the world order.

(...)

The sixth challenge is withdrawal of Russian troops and cessation of hostilities.

(...)

The seventh – justice.

(...)

The eighth challenge is ecocide, the need for immediate protection of environment.

(...)

The next - the ninth – is the prevention of escalation.

(...)

And the tenth – confirmation of the end of the war ...
... and his expectation that Canada pick up and run with at least one of the ten batons presented (archived link if previous link doesn't work) - highlights mine ...
... We emphasize on all of the elements of Russian aggression, and offer our partners to demolish all aspects of aggression together with us in order to provide security. That is something where each of our partners can show their leadership.

We have already succeeded in some things, for example, we extended the grain export initiative and offer a new humanitarian initiative – Grain From Ukraine to enhance food security.

In the same way, we can go step by step in other items of our Peace Formula.

I suggest you, dear Forum participants, to choose the possible leadership options for your countries. Each item of our Peace Formula has the proposals for particular solutions. Please choose which item you can help with.

I believe that Canada, which strongly supports us, will also choose one of the Peace Formula items for itself and will show all the strength of its leadership ...
We'll see ...

OP edit to add missing element - with thanks to @brihard
 
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