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Sleeves up in Cadpat

OldSolduer

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I may be a dinosaur but in my pea brain mind dress regs are there for a reason. The reason we don't roll sleeves up, as far as I know is twofold.
Protection from insect bites that can infect you and prevention of sunburn.

It's not just about uniformity.

 

SupersonicMax

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Hamish Seggie said:
I may be a dinosaur but in my pea brain mind dress regs are there for a reason. The reason we don't roll sleeves up, as far as I know is twofold.
Protection from insect bites that can infect you and prevention of sunburn.

It's not just about uniformity.

Treat people like adults and they will behave like adults.  Treat them like kids and you got yourself a pre-K daycare...
 

gcclarke

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Hamish Seggie said:
So the CoC needs to inform their people about why this and many other decisions have been taken. IF the reasons are sound most will go with the program.

BUT there will always be the barracks room lawyers.....

The reasons you suggested are that having sleeves down provides an opportunity for sunburns and insect bites.

A) A far more reasonable solution to those two problems is provision of sunscreen and insect repellant.

B) Mandating that everyone everywhere needs to be wearing their CADPAT with sleeves down, even if they're working in, oh, say, inside a building where exposure to the sun and insects isn't an issue is asinine.

C) If the concept of having bare forearms is too dangerous for service members, then why the hell do short sleeved DEUs exist? So dangerous!

D) This change was prompted by the new CADPAT with the pockets on the sleeves. It's obviously not a safety issue, and frankly for you to suggest that safety is the reason the change was made comes across as either you being either willfully ignorant or intentionally deceptive. I'm not sure which is worse in this situation.

Face it, the only feasible actual rationale for banning the rolling of sleeves is the whole stupid pockets being in the way that make it somewhat less "neat" to roll them. Which doesn't actually mean that you can't, just that it might not look as pretty. And thus, we have another example of people being expected to spend all the time uncomfortable and hot, for no reason other than optics. Again, I will reiterate, if you're making decisions that prioritize appearance over the well-being and comfort of your personnel, then it's just proof that you don't really care about the well being of those personnel.

Especially if that decision is made by people who work in HQ, and thus rarely have to wear the level of dress we're talking about, or work outside in the heat. Decisions made that negatively affect tens of thousands of people, by people who don't care because it doesn't affect them.

Remius said:
The CAF relaxes grooming standards, allows pony tails, gets with the times about recreational drug use and boots but somehow the CoC gets branded as not caring about their people.

In the PS there are literally thousands of people who haven't had an accurate pay for five years, whose financial futures are ruined and we whine about beard length and sleeves.  FML.

The difference here is one of intent IMHO. No one intended for the Phoenix to be a complete frig up. It happened, and they're trying to fix it. Whereas someone obviously intended for the order to be given that sleeves not be rolled with CADPAT, as such an order can't be accidentally issued and promulgated. Given a choice, I'll always pick someone who cares about my best interests but sometimes fucks up rather than someone who doesn't care about my best interests but is quite competent.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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Is this thread for real??  I don't get to dress the way I want whilst in someone else's employment?? 
 

SupersonicMax

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So, questionning orders and leadership (in peace time) on administrative matters  is not okay?
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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Well I guess there's an adult way and a child's way. ......
 

Navy_Pete

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Remius said:
Because wearing combats to work is so uncomfortable?  It's like wearing pajamas.  Sleeves up or down. 

People freaking out about not being able to roll up sleeves at work, having to trim beards , put their phones away and occasionally shower is emblematic of what I consider the worst traits of today's Army.  Too many individuals making mountains out of mole hills.  and then thinking that people don't care about their subordinates care and comfort because of sleeves and beards?  Man, I hate the term snowflake but this is getting out of hand.

Normally this is where someone suggests people are bored and finds make work for them to do.

Really don't think this is that big a deal; if it's that hot, and the actual cadpat isn't required for an actual operational reason, most people use common sense and allow tshirts to be worn while doing work in this kind of heat.  Not really rocket surgery.  If you actually need camo (like enemy contact), keeping your arms covered kind of makes sense, but likely not allowed in garrison because there is too much velcro and it looks stupid to roll it partway up.

Don't think we need to overthink it too much, but sometimes people are a bit too 10-ply and complain about stuff that isn't really an issue.  The easy fix is to make DotD DEUs for office work and just let our competent supervisors lead their own troops by applying common dog. 
 

TB

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So are RCAF folks supposed to keep sleeves down and follow this CA direction? I’m seeing tons of members here with sleeves roll up.
 

Eye In The Sky

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Eagle Eye View said:
So are RCAF folks supposed to keep sleeves down and follow this CA direction? I’m seeing tons of members here with sleeves roll up.

It depends on if the mbr is wearing CADPAT or the ECU.

CADO Vol 1, 1-006 OPERATIONAL DRESS   (latest version)

CANADIAN PATTERN LIGHT WEIGHT COMBAT CLOTHING

General

13. LWCC shall be worn as follows:

a. boots must be CAF issue or approved for wear with the LWCC i.e. not ankle boots;
b. pants shall be worn bloused above the boot with leg inserts tucked inside the boot. The laces shall be tucked away and hidden from view;
c. shirt sleeves may be rolled up or not, as the member chooses or safety dictates. If rolled up, they must be rolled twice above the elbow;
d. all pockets will be closed and buttoned, zippers closed;
e. the pants shall be secured with an approved belt;
f. loose adjustment strings to be tied off and hidden from view;
g. under certain conditions and where practical (i.e. extreme heat), the LWCC shirt may be removed in accordance with local Wing/Unit policy. Local Wings/Units should establish policy governing when and where the LWCC shirt may be removed.

ENHANCED COMBAT UNIFORM

General

17. ECU clothing shall be worn as indicated:

a. mandarin collar shall remain down and not attached while in garrison;
b. sleeves shall not be rolled up. The wearer may decide how tight or loosely the cuff will be secured with the Velcro fastener;
c. trousers shall be bloused using elastics in the traditional manner with leg inserts tucked inside the boot. The ECU trouser comes issued with removable knee pads which for the majority will be removed for day-to-day activities. They shall not be discarded and shall be included with the trousers when returned to supply;
d. boots must be CAF issue or approved for wear with the ECU. i.e. not ankle boots;
e. all pockets will be closed and buttoned;
f. the pants shall be secured with a belt; and
g. under certain conditions and where practical (i.e. extreme heat), the ECU shirt may be removed in accordance with local Wing/Unit policy. Local Wings / Units should establish policy governing when and where the ECU shirt may be removed.
 

TB

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Gotcha, thanks for the info EITS. So depending on which version Cadpat  shirt they have, the member can choose to roll their sleeves or not. Kinda using common sense.
 

Throwaway987

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Back on topic though. Isn’t the root cause of the sleeve issue that CADPAT with sleeves rolled down isn’t the most appropriate garment for getting work done outside of a field environment? e.g. manual labour or in a hot garrison environment where it’s uncomfortable to have sleeves rolled down?

The frustration from millennials is that we see through the cool-aid of poor excuses and don’t have the discipline to keep it bottled in. We’re literally just uncomfortably warm with the sleeves down and we don’t think the “because the CCA said so” is a good enough reason in this non-life or death situation.

It’s difficult to follow impractical orders that aren’t in touch with reality.

Edit: Navy Pete’s mentioned working in just a T shirt during real work but this tunic-off situation isn’t always possible/practical. It’s like ordering people to wear the ICE jacket and wondering why there’s resentment and difficulty enforcing this regulation.
 

Eye In The Sky

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Throwaway987 said:
The frustration from millennials is that we see through the cool-aid of poor excuses and don’t have the discipline to keep it bottled in. We’re literally just uncomfortably warm and don’t think the “because the CCA said so” is a good enough reason in this non-life or death situation.

It’s difficult to follow impractical orders that aren’t in touch with reality.

Ya...how difficult will it be to follow orders if you're not just going to be uncomfortable, you could be injured, maimed or killed?  Should the GoC and CAF believe you'll follow orders then, when you won't over sleeves because "you're uncomfortable"?  I spent days in the training area in Gagetown, Wainwright doing NBC Survey/CRTs in TOPP HIGH...there was no 'actual' NBC threat...maybe we should have been allowed to train in shorts and tank tops.  You know...less uncomfortable.

What orders are you supposed to follow?  I think I read something about that somewhere...

An officer/NCM shall become acquainted with, observe and enforce, the National Defence Act, the Security of Information Act, QR&O, and all other regulations, rules, orders and instructions that pertain to the performance of the officer's/NCMs duties.


That's it.  It doesn't get any simpler to understand.  ALL rules, orders, regulations, instructions

When you start ignoring rules, orders, regs...that is the issue.  Complain about them?  Got it...been happening for decades, did it and do it myself.  I expect my superiors to listen and consider my legitimate gripes, actually consider them and forward up the chain of command if required/reasonable (sometimes I'm just bitchin'...).  They expect me to carry on doing things the way they're supposed to be done, regardless of those opinions.

And that is how it has worked for decades, will work tomorrow and probably for years to come.  I, for one, don't give 2 shits if you're "millenials", or Muchkins from the Wizard of Oz set.  Do what you're supposed to do, when you're supposed to do it, how you're supposed to do it.  Simple.  Don't like it?  Your not conscripts, go see the Release Section.  Being a millennial isn't a badge of pride or honour.  You join the CAF, you're a CAF member.  If you don't want to or aren't able to do things the way the CAF wants, needs, expects them done...why be in the CAF?

Am I ready to see people leave over sleeves?  Nope. 

I am ready to see people leave who don't want to follow orders and will cut corners and/or lack any amount of self discipline?  Damn right I am.  Go run your own business or something, where you can do what you want and make your own rules. 

You'll have to forgive me for seeming so intense about this "following orders/self discipline/do what you're told, how you're told, when you're told" stuff.  I've almost been injured, or worse, on a live grenade practice by a young Pte in '98 who didn't do what they were supposed to, when they were supposed to and it almost got the 2 of us in a huge world of hurt in a very short time frame.  I've had people do stupid things out of lack of attention to detail, lack of self discipline while flying that had the potential to down an aircraft and crew.  I see the link between the "this isn't a REALLY important rule, I'll ignore it" thinking and bad shit happening.  It's a slippery slope...
 

Infanteer

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I think, and I may be wrong, there was a cultural shift in the Army at about the 2007 mark.  Up until then, sleeves rolled up was actually the enforced dress for a defined period from spring to fall.  It was rigorously enforced and I still remember "the RSM has stated that sleeves shall be rolled up on Monday."

Come Afghanistan, and force protection concerns dictate that sleeves are rolled down.  You can see a difference between photos in 2006 (where some soldiers rolled their sleeves) and the later years.  My soldiers never left the wire without sleeves being rolled down, even in the 40 degree heat.  It wasn't that I was a mindless automaton - it was the appropriate force protection measure.

That seems to have migrated to the Army in Canada.  By the time I got back from Afghanistan, sleeves were always rolled down, even through the summer in garrison.  I rarely see rolled sleeves these days.  I'm not sure if this was explicit, or if it just kind of happened.... :dunno:
 

Sub_Guy

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Some units do allow for pushed up flight suit sleeves.  But only in workspaces.

Mine are pushed up whenever I’m in my workspace.  I find it more comfortable.

Hallways strutting around base, they are down. Unless I’m looking to have EITS give me the ole Terry Tate tackle. 
 

Eye In The Sky

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I'm too old and fat to even try that now.  I'd probably just end up hurting myself.  ;D
 

Furniture

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Eye In The Sky said:
How much adapting is "too much"?  I think the CAF is adapting, based on 'where it was 30 years ago' when I joined to today.  I'd rather see the focus on better career management practices, a personnel evaluation system that rewards people more for the core job skills than secondary duties and community service, the ability for people to move from Reg to Res, Res to Reg quicker, etc.  Those are the issues I'd rather see our senior leadership bring to the CDS, AFC, etc.  Sleeves?  That topic won't really improve my QOL any. 

I've heard this argument before about the 'best and brightest'.  I know a few folks in my trade that had bright futures that left;  it was not over buttons and bows, it was more about issues like I mentioned in the line above. 

I hope most people in leadership positions will pass on their concerns to their superiors, and then carry on with the job.  Is this sleeves down issue really THAT big of a deal for Army folks?  Because it's been that way in the RCAF for...well as long as I've been in flying jammies.  Also from CADO, Vol 1, 1-006 Operational Dress:

I don't think anyone in this thread complaining about the sleeves rule has stated that sleeves alone are driving people out, and people on here construing the argument that way is intentionally missing the points raised.

The point about sleeves, and retention is that on top of all the other issues there are in the CAF, we continue to see "silly" rules thrown at us. If I'm sitting at a desk in an office, or on the shop floor inside a building protection from bugs, and the sun are not reasonable reasons to prevent me from rolling sleeves. Dismissing anyone who is annoyed, and venting frustration about a "silly" rule as unworthy of wearing the uniform is the kind of attitude or "leadership" that sees people get out.

 

Remius

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Furniture said:
I don't think anyone in this thread complaining about the sleeves rule has stated that sleeves alone are driving people out, and people on here construing the argument that way is intentionally missing the points raised.

The point about sleeves, and retention is that on top of all the other issues there are in the CAF, we continue to see "silly" rules thrown at us. If I'm sitting at a desk in an office, or on the shop floor inside a building protection from bugs, and the sun are not reasonable reasons to prevent me from rolling sleeves. Dismissing anyone who is annoyed, and venting frustration about a "silly" rule as unworthy of wearing the uniform is the kind of attitude or "leadership" that sees people get out.

Sleeves alone isn't driving people out.  Allowing them to roll them up for whatever reason isn't going to keep them in either.  Some people don't understand the retention issues or their reasons.  Almost everyone I know that has left the CAF bitter and angry has never once mentioned parades, beards or sleeves. I think when people don't like doing something because "reasons" they pile it onto their already exhaustive list of excuses to make it seem like it is a real issue when it isn't.

I've heard complaints about free parking, sleeves, beards, working weekends, parades, DEUs, stand downs on Fridays that don't happen etc etc.

How about real issues that affect retention.  Sexual misconduct, pension issues, training and wait time for courses, VOTs, medical restrictions, CTs, mission focus, equipment etc etc.  THOSE are the real issues.  Stop making piddly personal dislikes into something they are not and lumping them in with real issues.     
 

Gunplumber

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I have been a Wpns tech in the Army for 36 years in places like Germany and the Airborne in Petawawa. I am aware of what its like to follow orders but I was never taught to do it blindly. For some a**hat to arbitrarily say that sleeves need to be down, I would really like an explanation why. I understand that the new pattern cadpat needs it like that, and thats how I wear them when I do wear them (winter). But for me to wear sleeves down in the summer when Im out on the range for a couple of hours EVERY day, it pisses me off. I continue to wear headress and shirt as Im supposed to look like a professional. The only way to get cool is to have my sleeves up so I can get some air on my skin.
Because of this change I will not be going out on the range as much as I do and if rifles break down, tough. They can bring them to my shop. Im not going down with heat exhaustion again. I have also decided that I will retire sooner than I was going to, I dont need to deal with this sort of crap.

I have pepperpotted in TOP high and sweated buckets in my career so I am no stranger to  the physical aspect of the Army.
 

Remius

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Gunplumber said:
I have been a Wpns tech in the Army for 36 years in places like Germany and the Airborne in Petawawa. I am aware of what its like to follow orders but I was never taught to do it blindly. For some a**hat to arbitrarily say that sleeves need to be down, I would really like an explanation why. I understand that the new pattern cadpat needs it like that, and thats how I wear them when I do wear them (winter). But for me to wear sleeves down in the summer when Im out on the range for a couple of hours EVERY day, it pisses me off. I continue to wear headress and shirt as Im supposed to look like a professional. The only way to get cool is to have my sleeves up so I can get some air on my skin.
Because of this change I will not be going out on the range as much as I do and if rifles break down, tough. They can bring them to my shop. Im not going down with heat exhaustion again. I have also decided that I will retire sooner than I was going to, I dont need to deal with this sort of crap.

I have pepperpotted in TOP high and sweated buckets in my career so I am no stranger to  the physical aspect of the Army.

If sleeves down on a Range pisses you off to that extent and a couple of hours a day makes you go down with heat exhaustion then perhaps retirement is for the best.

Looks like you had a good career.  Good luck in retirement.  I don’t plan on working a day over 35 years  ;D
 

OldSolduer

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Well you could always go back to “work dress “.

That would be for day to day stuff in garrison and the only time op dress is allowed is for op training like ranges etc.
;)
 
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