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Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

Mediman14

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Happens all the time, sadly. And not just the ‘girl on boy’ style interactions.

I was Adjt of a unit at one time when two of my Officers were falsely accused of ‘gang assaulting’ a female officer from another unit.

Against all my pleas for ‘due process’ they were punished, confined to their rooms actually, for a month before any formal proceedings were scheduled. She then admitted to lying and they were released as if nothing had happened. No apology, nothing.

She received no admonishment for lying, and my two (excellent) Officers subsequently left the Army in disgust.

Glass half full: they are both doing much better now than any of the Generals who dumped on them during this ridiculous incident.
I don’t understand why someone would want to that to people. The lying party should be punished heavily . It says a lot about those who automatically assume people are guilty without a proper unbiased investigation. Because if there actions, they should be remove from command and let it be made publicly. That way they get a sense for others felt .
If it is true about the general officers, it will be extremely hard to gain back trust.
 

lenaitch

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Because if it's any like the civilian legal world, there is enormous pressure to treat all allegations as true, and that to call out false allegations will be seen as stifling victims from coming forward.
 

daftandbarmy

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I don’t understand why someone would want to that to people. The lying party should be punished heavily . It says a lot about those who automatically assume people are guilty without a proper unbiased investigation. Because if there actions, they should be remove from command and let it be made publicly. That way they get a sense for others felt .
If it is true about the general officers, it will be extremely hard to gain back trust.

Criminal behaviour should not be brushed under the carpet, but there's a key role for due process amidst the hysteria:

The Dark Side Of #MeToo: What Happens When Men Are Falsely Accused​


The reality is that false accusations happen. And we need to talk about them.

Famed lawyer Alan Dershowitz is no stranger to controversy. In fact, he often invites it with open arms. But being accused of rape and being lumped in with Prince Andrew and Jeffrey Epstein is a rare type of controversy that he finds himself uncomfortable with: “I welcome controversy about my ideas. I love having debates and controversy about my ideas. But having controversy about whether or not I’m a sex offender? That’s not what I bargained for in my life.”

Dershowitz recounts his side of the story in the book Guilt By Accusation: The Challenge of Proving Innocence in the Age of #metoo. His case is particularly interesting because it started before the #metoo movement and continues today. When asked if he noticed a difference between perception before and after, he said it was very noticeable. “There’s no question. Before the #metoo movement, I had won. It had gone away. I had the submission, I had the tapes, the recording, the emails, I had a full investigation by the former head of the FBI who said it was false, I had a judge who struck it [down], the lawyers had withdrawn it...it was over! It was completely over. And then the #metoo movement came, and suddenly it was resurrected.”

 

Mediman14

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Criminal behaviour should not be brushed under the carpet, but there's a key role for due process amidst the hysteria:

The Dark Side Of #MeToo: What Happens When Men Are Falsely Accused​


The reality is that false accusations happen. And we need to talk about them.

Famed lawyer Alan Dershowitz is no stranger to controversy. In fact, he often invites it with open arms. But being accused of rape and being lumped in with Prince Andrew and Jeffrey Epstein is a rare type of controversy that he finds himself uncomfortable with: “I welcome controversy about my ideas. I love having debates and controversy about my ideas. But having controversy about whether or not I’m a sex offender? That’s not what I bargained for in my life.”

Dershowitz recounts his side of the story in the book Guilt By Accusation: The Challenge of Proving Innocence in the Age of #metoo. His case is particularly interesting because it started before the #metoo movement and continues today. When asked if he noticed a difference between perception before and after, he said it was very noticeable. “There’s no question. Before the #metoo movement, I had won. It had gone away. I had the submission, I had the tapes, the recording, the emails, I had a full investigation by the former head of the FBI who said it was false, I had a judge who struck it [down], the lawyers had withdrawn it...it was over! It was completely over. And then the #metoo movement came, and suddenly it was resurrected.”

Like I said previously, I am not doubting any allegations at all, and I agree things shouldn’t be sweep under the rug. What I do think is that all personal involved should not be thrown to the wolves without a fair and unbiased investigation.
 

YZT580

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Like I said previously, I am not doubting any allegations at all, and I agree things shouldn’t be sweep under the rug. What I do think is that all personal involved should not be thrown to the wolves without a fair and unbiased investigation.
the only way to do that is to keep it out of the news and that is an impossibility between traditional and twitter having at you
 

Jarnhamar

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There doesn't seem to be a large appetite in the militarily to go after people who make false allegations. It seems like the response by the CoC is that the falsely accused should just count themselves lucky and move on.

Children's Aid is like that. It can easily be weaponized and people are falsely accused all the time. They won't go after people who make false allegations because they "don't have the resources to do so and as long as kids are safe it's all good".

Because the CAF likes to go full send I'm sure NCOs and Officers won't be able to have conversations with subordinates without 6 witnesses in the room, a body cam and JAG officer on the phone.
 

FJAG

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There doesn't seem to be a large appetite in the militarily to go after people who make false allegations. It seems like the response by the CoC is that the falsely accused should just count themselves lucky and move on.

Children's Aid is like that. It can easily be weaponized and people are falsely accused all the time. They won't go after people who make false allegations because they "don't have the resources to do so and as long as kids are safe it's all good".

Because the CAF likes to go full send I'm sure NCOs and Officers won't be able to have conversations with subordinates without 6 witnesses in the room, a body cam and JAG officer on the phone.
Probably true.

The problem with going after false allegations is that quite often it is not possible to prove that it was clearly false. More often than not some poor prosecutor had to make a call that there was insufficient evidence for a reasonable likelihood of conviction on the initial complaint. Usually that also leaves him with a situation that there is probably no reasonable likelihood that the initial allegation was false or fraudulent. There's a lot of wishy washy middle ground between the two.

🍻
 

dapaterson

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Or, in some instances, institutional pressure was exerted to persuade someone to abandon their claim. "He's a good guy, do you want to ruin his career?" "It's your word against his, if you withdraw the claim you won't have to go through the wringer."
 

Haggis

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There doesn't seem to be a large appetite in the militarily to go after people who make false allegations. It seems like the response by the CoC is that the falsely accused should just count themselves lucky and move on.
Like this guy?
 

FJAG

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Or, in some instances, institutional pressure was exerted to persuade someone to abandon their claim. "He's a good guy, do you want to ruin his career?" "It's your word against his, if you withdraw the claim you won't have to go through the wringer."
You know, I can't even remember a situation I was in where I would have even considered using a line like that or for that matter if I had been confronted by such a situation that I would ever have used it. And that's from long before all these mandated programs even existed.

It involves making a value judgement that has a preconceived notion of which individual is worth protecting and which can be thrown under the bus.

I do not doubt that this goes on but I can't for the life of me conceive of why it does.

🍻
 

QV

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Probably true.

The problem with going after false allegations is that quite often it is not possible to prove that it was clearly false. More often than not some poor prosecutor had to make a call that there was insufficient evidence for a reasonable likelihood of conviction on the initial complaint. Usually that also leaves him with a situation that there is probably no reasonable likelihood that the initial allegation was false or fraudulent. There's a lot of wishy washy middle ground between the two.

🍻
That’s a copout. There are many cases with false allegations where the evidence is available, yet they still get a pass. This reminds me of the no discretion domestic violence policy some years ago that resulted in police frequently charging both parties and “letting the courts sort it out” ... just abandon any investigation to determine who the aggressor was. Both parties arrested, charged. Case gets peace bonded out, no justice or protection for the victim, cycle of violence continues. In fact the victim was further victimized by the legal system.
 

OldSolduer

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You know, I can't even remember a situation I was in where I would have even considered using a line like that or for that matter if I had been confronted by such a situation that I would ever have used it. And that's from long before all these mandated programs even existed.

It involves making a value judgement that has a preconceived notion of which individual is worth protecting and which can be thrown under the bus.

I do not doubt that this goes on but I can't for the life of me conceive of why it does.

🍻
For quite a few years wives of service members who had been assaulted or abused by their spouse service member (wife beaters) would not come forward and out the guy. All because they didn't want to ruin his career.
 

dapaterson

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You know, I can't even remember a situation I was in where I would have even considered using a line like that or for that matter if I had been confronted by such a situation that I would ever have used it. And that's from long before all these mandated programs even existed.

It involves making a value judgement that has a preconceived notion of which individual is worth protecting and which can be thrown under the bus.

I do not doubt that this goes on but I can't for the life of me conceive of why it does.

🍻
Such undue influence is rarely on the legal side, but rather on the command side.
 

FJAG

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That’s a copout. There are many cases with false allegations where the evidence is available, yet they still get a pass. This reminds me of the no discretion domestic violence policy some years ago that resulted in police frequently charging both parties and “letting the courts sort it out” ... just abandon any investigation to determine who the aggressor was. Both parties arrested, charged. Case gets peace bonded out, no justice or protection for the victim, cycle of violence continues. In fact the victim was further victimized by the legal system.
I was quite precise using the term "quite often". I don't doubt that there are cases where the evidence is "available" or even "clear" and in those cases there should definitely be prosecutions. My point is that "quite often" in these situations the evidence is a lot muddier and and contradictory (I hate to use the term "he said/she said" but that's often all that's available) than you would like it to be.

Such undue influence is rarely on the legal side, but rather on the command side.
There was a time when I was on the "command side" before the "legal side". I have troubles understanding why either side would take that approach.

🍻
 

Kilted

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There doesn't seem to be a large appetite in the militarily to go after people who make false allegations. It seems like the response by the CoC is that the falsely accused should just count themselves lucky and move on.

Children's Aid is like that. It can easily be weaponized and people are falsely accused all the time. They won't go after people who make false allegations because they "don't have the resources to do so and as long as kids are safe it's all good".

Because the CAF likes to go full send I'm sure NCOs and Officers won't be able to have conversations with subordinates without 6 witnesses in the room, a body cam and JAG officer on the phone.
I'm surprised that there aren't more cameras on DND establishments. It wouldn't surprise me if this became more common in the future. The real question is will they eventually put them in the mess? I could see a few people being upset over that. Does the military have any regulations against recording conversations, especially those with a superior?
 
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