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Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

daftandbarmy

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So these last comments from HB highlight the largest issue we have as an organization. "In an emergency situation" "we do this in the Army" "liberal feminism" etc. etc. And I'm not calling HB out for his views, I'm just using his comments as examples of why there is a problem with the organization. Like it or not, we are no longer a homogenous organization who all think that the whole is more important than the individual. Did anyone ask that female whether she wanted to share a foxhole with a male? Or ask the male if he was comfortable with the setup? What if some of the females in those Messes have been assaulted or preyed upon previously and are genuinely concerned about their safety or just their modesty? Like it or not, we no longer want an organization that forces individuals to give up their personal beliefs (within reason) when they sign on the dotted line.

As for who should fill the roles of these culture officers, I do think it should be a Jr NCM. And if COs and the Senior CoC can't find time to listen to what they have to say without having it filtered through multiple layers, new Command teams need to be put in place, because people aren't getting it. And if someone gets blindsided, too bad, that means someone in that CoC wasn't listening to their members or the members they serve.

There was a time when, if a Senior Officer was screwing up, the CSM/RSM network kicked in and the right people did something about it.

And you didn't even need someone with 'culture' in their title to sort it out.
 

dimsum

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There was a time when, if a Senior Officer was screwing up, the CSM/RSM network kicked in and the right people did something about it.

And you didn't even need someone with 'culture' in their title to sort it out.
To be fair, the article (and presumably initiative) really only talked about having those onboard ships.
 

daftandbarmy

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To be fair, the article (and presumably initiative) really only talked about having those onboard ships.

I agree that the initiatives mentioned in the article were worthy efforts to address key issues in the organization. The 'same sex drop off' thing (still boggles my mind that this was an issue) is a good example.

I still don't see why these things can't be dealt with through the SNCO net (getting dressed below decks sounds like a 'sort that out for us PO' kind of thing), or via an Officer/SNCO as a secondary duty.

For example, in 45 CDO RM we had several females, WRNS, filling certain jobs in the Int, Med, Log or HQ sections. They were posted to the unit full time and worked with Royal Marines on a regular basis. Our Asst Adjt, a female RN SLt, was the go to person for all things related to the WRNS complement. She did a great job of sorting out a host of issues that emerged, whether it was on operational tours in Northern Ireland, on Norway NATO deployments, or back in mainland UK. As a secondary duty. (She also regularly kicked everyone's ass on the Squash courts, but that's beside the point).

It was a greta opportunity for a Junior Officer to show leadership and engage with the CO, and others at higher levels, as required on behalf of the unit and its members.

Now that there are other considerations, LGBTQ2 etc, these can be added to the list of items for this person to sort out.
 

rmc_wannabe

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I agree that the initiatives mentioned in the article were worthy efforts to address key issues in the organization. The 'same sex drop off' thing (still boggles my mind that this was an issue) is a good example.

I still don't see why these things can't be dealt with through the SNCO net (getting dressed below decks sounds like a 'sort that out for us PO' kind of thing), or via an Officer/SNCO as a secondary duty.

For example, in 45 CDO RM we had several females, WRNS, filling certain jobs in the Int, Med, Log or HQ sections. They were posted to the unit full time and worked with Royal Marines on a regular basis. Our Asst Adjt, a female RN SLt, was the go to person for all things related to the WRNS complement. She did a great job of sorting out a host of issues that emerged, whether it was on operational tours in Northern Ireland, on Norway NATO deployments, or back in mainland UK. As a secondary duty. (She also regularly kicked everyone's ass on the Squash courts, but that's beside the point).

It was a greta opportunity for a Junior Officer to show leadership and engage with the CO, and others at higher levels, as required on behalf of the unit and its members.

Now that there are other considerations, LGBTQ2 etc, these can be added to the list of items for this person to sort out.

See and this is the problem I see with the CAF as a whole whenever something needs addressing. We use the typical Government of Canada fix of "create a committee" or "create a special advisor to the Departmental Executive Commander" rather than actually using the people and power we have in position to address said issue.

I'm a Sentinel. I'm a LGBTQ2+ Positive Space Ambassador. I am a Workplace Huan Rights Advisor.

I am also a Troop Warrant Officer. I feel that the three things up top should be the baseline for all leaders section level and up. Perhaps instead of beasting Senior Cpls and new MCpls around on PLQ or AJLC (or conversely a new 2Lt on BMOQ-A), we can actually roll some of this extremely valuable and relevant training into the courses.

Being a good leader of good character and being able to confidently address the situation at hand instead of running to the GENAD or trying to find an advisor for "culture" should be the default. If we're going to put effort into fixing these issues, lets develop our leaders into better ones instead of adding another layer of bureaucracy.
 

daftandbarmy

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I'm a Sentinel. I'm a LGBTQ2+ Positive Space Ambassador. I am a Workplace Huan Rights Advisor.

I am also a Troop Warrant Officer. I feel that the three things up top should be the baseline for all leaders section level and up. Perhaps instead of beasting Senior Cpls and new MCpls around on PLQ or AJLC (or conversely a new 2Lt on BMOQ-A), we can actually roll some of this extremely valuable and relevant training into the courses.

Being a good leader of good character and being able to confidently address the situation at hand instead of running to the GENAD or trying to find an advisor for "culture" should be the default. If we're going to put effort into fixing these issues, lets develop our leaders into better ones instead of adding another layer of bureaucracy.

This.
 

CBH99

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Completely agreed, with every fibre of my being. Well said.

The CAF & government needed to be seeing to be doing something. So this is ‘one of those things’. Something they can be implemented quickly, so the parties involved can say “we are addressing this & making changes.”


But what you said is bang on rmc. Good leadership, moulded from good character, that leads by example, holds themselves accountable, and addresses these types of issues immediately and appropriately IS ultimately the answer.

I’ve said this a few times throughout this thread, mostly towards the beginning. I was BOTH extremely lucky that while in the CAF, I honestly did not witness or experience any of this stuff. I was also fortunate enough to only ever be in fairly small units where everybody was tight knit, and our CoC was actually really really good.

I was also very naive. I drank the kool-aid and genuinely have believed in leading by example since before I even joined. And I had just naively assumed that the clean cut, professional looking leaders were the last people who would engage in stuff like that. (Now with my current job, my preconceived assumptions are rapidly wearing off.)

Good leadership & good character. Develop better leaders. Most of our problems would go away with just that.
 

YZT580

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Completely agreed, with every fibre of my being. Well said.

The CAF & government needed to be seeing to be doing something. So this is ‘one of those things’. Something they can be implemented quickly, so the parties involved can say “we are addressing this & making changes.”


But what you said is bang on rmc. Good leadership, moulded from good character, that leads by example, holds themselves accountable, and addresses these types of issues immediately and appropriately IS ultimately the answer.

I’ve said this a few times throughout this thread, mostly towards the beginning. I was BOTH extremely lucky that while in the CAF, I honestly did not witness or experience any of this stuff. I was also fortunate enough to only ever be in fairly small units where everybody was tight knit, and our CoC was actually really really good.

I was also very naive. I drank the kool-aid and genuinely have believed in leading by example since before I even joined. And I had just naively assumed that the clean cut, professional looking leaders were the last people who would engage in stuff like that. (Now with my current job, my preconceived assumptions are rapidly wearing off.)

Good leadership & good character. Develop better leaders. Most of our problems would go away with just that.
leading by example is the only way. Anything else and you will end up on the wrong side of a headline
 

Good2Golf

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leading by example is the only way. Anything else and you will end up on the wrong side of a headline
Unless you’re on the controlling/influencing side of the media. #government
 

childs56

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There was a time when, if a Senior Officer was screwing up, the CSM/RSM network kicked in and the right people did something about it.

And you didn't even need someone with 'culture' in their title to sort it out.
This is how and why "coverups" of serious incidents happened and things were never dealt with properly. You can also say for many incidents internal punishments were more harsh and appropriate then external. Except if the issue gets pushed around and never properly reported and it turns into what we have now. (I am sure similar issues with these Officers was dealt with internally as the years went by)
 

CBH99

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Unless you’re on the controlling/influencing side of the media. #government
Eventually their attempts and ways of controlling the media comes back to bite them. Hard. Repeatedly.

People can email, call, and communicate the truth about something fairly easily and anonymously these days. As successful as it may be sometimes, eventually someone yanks the curtain & the government just ends up looking WORSE
 

childs56

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I am also a Troop Warrant Officer. I feel that the three things up top should be the baseline for all leaders section level and up. Perhaps instead of beasting Senior Cpls and new MCpls around on PLQ or AJLC (or conversely a new 2Lt on BMOQ-A), we can actually roll some of this extremely valuable and relevant training into the courses.
There use to be a reason for this type of training. It was to make effective Leaders under high stress situations. Sleep deprived, food deprived, moral deprived, skills deprived. Lets see what you can do under harsh conditions. This way you learn to overcome your deficiencies as a team. Lean on the each other for help to accomplish the mission. Now it seems like it has turned into lets be a manager at "insert your favorite store" and screw everyone else around me I am my own person and don't tell me how to do it.

If people think the Military PLQ training is hard or unfair. You should check out big blue oilfield (Schlumberger) and see how they train their Engineers to run jobs, you would be crying in your boots.
The reality is the Military trains people to fight. That means training people in harsh, unimaginable ways to adapt and overcome the situations they may encounter.
They need to hold people accountable for their actions. The Leadership needs to enforce the current and or past training and standards with how to deal with misappropriate conduct by its members. "SHARP" There has been lots of good training and seminars on this. But it fell to the wayside because the leadership did not feel this training was valuable or important. Worse was they enforced if for some of their Soldiers, Sailors and Aviators, but did not enforce it for all or themselves. Which eventually broke the system and made it worse.



 

Good2Golf

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Eventually their attempts and ways of controlling the media comes back to bite them. Hard. Repeatedly.
Waiting to see that happen with today’s federal government.

[/cynical]

People can email, call, and communicate the truth about something fairly easily and anonymously these days. As successful as it may be sometimes, eventually someone yanks the curtain & the government just ends up looking WORSE
By “WORSE” do you mean as in: ‘make a hollow, vapid sniffling “she experienced it differently than me” non-apology’? 🤔

[/super cynical]
 

CBH99

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Waiting to see that happen with today’s federal government.

[/cynical]
So my own 2 cents on this, is that anytime PM Trudeau tries to stick-handle the media to avoid certain topics or cover up some nonsense with some cheery soundbites, it has come back to haunt him. Sometimes instantly, sometimes it takes a while.
By “WORSE” do you mean as in: ‘make a hollow, vapid sniffling “she experienced it differently than me” non-apology’? 🤔

[/super cynical]
Oh his slimey nonsense is all his.

By worse I mean "He made these statements to the press, knowing they weren't true, or misleading - because he was trying to cover something up. Now he's in trouble for the thing he tried to cover up, AND it looks even worse because he tried to lead the media away from the truth." (I'm thinking WE scandal, SNC Lavalin scandal, etc.)


Either way. I used to find him somewhat charming, even though I would never vote for him. His inclusion of women & minorities in his cabinet - at the numbers he did - was appreciated. His photo-bombing of people, greeting refugees at the airport, yoga poses in parliament, etc etc - was good PR for him, and made him appealing to some folks who may not have paid him much attention before. Now, he just makes my skin crawl.
 

Kilted

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Older people are generally less comfortable with being uncomfortable but they need to suck it up, especially if they are in a leadership position. We need to stop bending over backwards to accommodate every single person's personal preferences and treat everyone with the same standard regardless of rank or position.

I think it's completely unreasonable to discuss changing facilities in an emergency situation, especially a real one. How about instead of worrying about people changing, people get out of their racks and put on firefighting gear or stop gazing at someone and do their job? We have women that share a foxhole with men and vice-versa and are able to get the job done without issue so why is this any different?

In my mind, this is the Western puritanical equivalent of devout Muslims worrying about women exposing their arms or legs while clad in a Burqa.
I hope I don't Op Honour myself by saying this, but I have changed my underwear next to a female Fireteam partner in the field, no one was uncomfortable with it, it had to be done. This was before Op Honour, but common sense should prevail in necessary circumstances.
 

OldSolduer

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Waiting to see that happen with today’s federal government.

[/cynical]


By “WORSE” do you mean as in: ‘make a hollow, vapid sniffling “she experienced it differently than me” non-apology’? 🤔

[/super cynical]
For this he should have been brusquely clubbed with a rubber truncheon. If any one of us had said that we'd get a punch in the face. And jail time.
 

Jarnhamar

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Alright let's back the train up a station or two, under the system currently it would seem a lot of power has been stripped from the SNCO, so in the situation of say a CO making a questionable choice what powers does an RSM currently have if they know the call is wrong?
I think a lot of the trust has been stripped away from SNCOs and WOs.
 

daftandbarmy

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I think a lot of the trust has been stripped away from SNCOs and WOs.

So let's build it back in, and give them some extra powers and some good oversight, while we're at it so they can keep 'good order and discipline', as my commissioning scroll suggests :)
 

Navy_Pete

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On FRE we discussed this. And we found the older people got the more they wanted their segregated messes. Basically the ladies in the C&POs mess didn't want to share a mess deck with 8 men burping and farting all night.
I've got to say that's completely reasonable. Especially when a lot of people get on a heavy lifting kick and are really hitting the gym and loading up on protein powders, the guy's messes could get pretty eye watering (with a weirdly moist miasma). The mess decks are basically a semi-ventilated steel box with pockets of dead air, they can be pretty rank. The female messes universally smelled better, and there was a noticeable transition period whenever people were shifted around until a space smelled good or not great, depending who was living there.

In a semi-related note, whoever decided to co-locate the showers and toilets in the same compartment on the CPFs should be shot into the grey water tanks.
 
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