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Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

brihard

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Maybe you think so. I don’t know if you’re right.

If more comes from further investigation into the matter, maybe that will be of greater benefit to address the root cause of the overall situation.


Frankly, the fact that MR took this COA indicates to me that for whatever reasons, he assessed it as the most appropriate for the situation, the apparent branching of which, the majority here are attributing to some level of either incompetence or hubris.

Personally, I’m not joining the masses to write MR off as having fumbled the ball. I may very well be wrong, but having spent a few tours in Ottawa, including not insignificant interaction with a number of Central Agencies, I’m quite willing to go out on a limb and believe that this whole thing isn’t over by a long shot.

The power dynamics at play are likely more intricate than most here believe.

$0.02


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G2G
I put a lot of stock in your experience and insight, so I hope you’re right. I don’t have the necessary insight into that level of the institution to take this at anything other than face value. Either way I’m inclined to be as charitable to MR as possible, and I hope somehow he ninjas his way through this. I know that I’ll believe anything he says about his own conduct unless I get compelling reasons not to. He has earned that.
 

FSTO

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Wouldn't resigning (in protest or otherwise) be more effective?

LGen Rouleau seems to be direct and articulate - what do you suppose is achieved by explaining, apologizing and stepping aside? Note that he directly states what his intentions were, the unfortunate optics, and why he is now stepping aside.
Historically resigning to protest government policy hasn't worked in the slightest in Canada. A plethora of GOFOs resigned during the unification of the armed forces of Canada, didn't change the direction of the government at all. Since then there have been several officers who have resigned for one reason or another. VAdm Chuck Thomas comes to mind (yes, the father of the current DM) and his actions barely registered. Canadians don't care about the CAF, we could self immolate and most Canadians would barely notice.
 

Remius

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Well since we are Theory crafting. Maybe Admiral Norman is behind all of this. After all, when he went through his purge from the system, many here stated he would get back on those that did him wrong. Maybe the fall of Vance and company was orchestrated by him and all this collateral damage is his doing…👽
 

Remius

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Historically resigning to protest government policy hasn't worked in the slightest in Canada. A plethora of GOFOs resigned during the unification of the armed forces of Canada, didn't change the direction of the government at all. Since then there have been several officers who have resigned for one reason or another. VAdm Chuck Thomas comes to mind (yes, the father of the current DM) and his actions barely registered. Canadians don't care about the CAF, we could self immolate and most Canadians would barely notice.
That’s the sad reality of all of this. Most Canadians have no real idea who these people are. All they see is another general stepping down due to some controversy and that the CAF has a sexual harassment problem.

So with the CAF’s reputation in tatters, leadership replaced and or shuffled, the government of the day may see a target rich environment for cutting after accumulating an immense amount of debt over the last few years.
 

trigger324

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That’s the sad reality of all of this. Most Canadians have no real idea who these people are. All they see is another general stepping down due to some controversy and that the CAF has a sexual harassment problem.
I'm not so sure about that. The military earned so much visibility within the last 10-15 years that was positive, a movement started where I still get thanked for my service on the norm when I'm grabbing my coffee on the way in, or grabbing 2L of milk on the way home dressed in my work clothes. I bet most of you do too. The military isn't invisible on the normal day to day and certainly not on Remembrance Day for example when it gets maximum coverage or every time the Snowbirds do a show.

Who's the media really shining the negative light on here? The government or the CAF? My money is on the government.
 

FSTO

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I'm not so sure about that. The military earned so much visibility within the last 10-15 years that was positive, a movement started where I still get thanked for my service on the norm when I'm grabbing my coffee on the way in, or grabbing 2L of milk on the way home dressed in my work clothes. I bet most of you do too. The military isn't invisible on the normal day to day and certainly not on Remembrance Day for example when it gets maximum coverage or every time the Snowbirds do a show.

Who's the media really shining the negative light on here? The government or the CAF? My money is on the government.
Thank you for your service comments (when they see the uniform) and attendance at Remembrance Day ceremonies are easy things for joe public to do. But other than that we are not given a second thought. This is reflected in Defence Committee "debates". For example has any MP actually been able to drill down to get to the root of issues facing the forces? Nope, most if not all of the questions from the MP's are gotcha attempts instead of insightful drill down of the issues. When Canada bought the used fighters from Oz, did any MP ask the minister WTF? And the MP's lack of probing questions are a reflection of their party staff's inability or unwillingness to get to the root of the issues facing the CAF today.
 

Mick

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Maybe you think so. I don’t know if you’re right.

If more comes from further investigation into the matter, maybe that will be of greater benefit to address the root cause of the overall situation.


Frankly, the fact that MR took this COA indicates to me that for whatever reasons, he assessed it as the most appropriate for the situation, the apparent branching of which, the majority here are attributing to some level of either incompetence or hubris.

Personally, I’m not joining the masses to write MR off as having fumbled the ball. I may very well be wrong, but having spent a few tours in Ottawa, including not insignificant interaction with a number of Central Agencies, I’m quite willing to go out on a limb and believe that this whole thing isn’t over by a long shot.

The power dynamics at play are likely more intricate than most here believe.

$0.02


Regards
G2G
To be clear, I think LGen Rouleau is an honourable man and I respect his integrity, which he continues to display by stepping aside.

I would also argue that he has openly and directly admitted that his actions were inappropriate, and has accepted responsibility.

I'll admit that my opinion is based solely on what I've read in the news, and LGen Rouleau's explicit statement.


LCol Taylor did exactly that. It was a momentary blip in the news cycle and them back to normal until someone brings it up again on a slow news day.
I understand your point, but LCol Taylor isn't as high profile as the VCDS.

The only other resignations I can think of, off the top of my head, would be RAdm Landymore, and maybe MGen Ross in 2003 re Afghanistan?

I'd honestly be surprised if this develops into much more than a momentary blip as well.

Wait and see, I suppose.
 

Jarnhamar

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What I can't find a reasonable explanation for, is that if that was his intention, how did CRCN get dragged into it?
Maybe MR gave him his best Smokes, lets go! voice.

CRCN's"
I didn't know any better" was pretty weak.



One could argue that Gen. Vance has not been convicted of anything yet. While this is certainly true, given the preponderance of evidence provided by Maj Kellie Brennan and others to date, certainly the VCDS and CRCN would have been aware of the reports made against him. I would guess that all three men have almost certainly convicted subordinates in Summary Trials of offences during their careers with less compelling evidence.
I've come back to this a few times and think it's insightful and accurate.
 

MilEME09

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I can't say I disagree with the CPC on this. That guy needs to go.
After everything that's happened with the minister, the department, including the high turn over rate of CDS, VCDS and others, one has to start looking at the possibility of a higher leadership issues at the department. Given we have two officers relieved over a golf game but after everything, the minister keeps his job, it's not about the good of the department, it's about one politicians career.
 

dimsum

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I'm not so sure about that. The military earned so much visibility within the last 10-15 years that was positive, a movement started where I still get thanked for my service on the norm when I'm grabbing my coffee on the way in, or grabbing 2L of milk on the way home dressed in my work clothes. I bet most of you do too. The military isn't invisible on the normal day to day and certainly not on Remembrance Day for example when it gets maximum coverage or every time the Snowbirds do a show.

Who's the media really shining the negative light on here? The government or the CAF? My money is on the government.
That is very location-specific. That has happened exactly twice to me - once in Comox and once in Calgary.

Where I am now (where there is a decent presence but not a "military town"), people look at me like I have 3 heads. It's actually a little awkward wearing my uniform in public.
 

OldSolduer

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After everything that's happened with the minister, the department, including the high turn over rate of CDS, VCDS and others, one has to start looking at the possibility of a higher leadership issues at the department. Given we have two officers relieved over a golf game but after everything, the minister keeps his job, it's not about the good of the department, it's about one politicians career.
The politician in question is apparently a very good fundraiser
 

Haggis

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I'm not so sure about that. The military earned so much visibility within the last 10-15 years that was positive, a movement started where I still get thanked for my service on the norm when I'm grabbing my coffee on the way in, or grabbing 2L of milk on the way home dressed in my work clothes. I bet most of you do too. The military isn't invisible on the normal day to day and certainly not on Remembrance Day for example when it gets maximum coverage or every time the Snowbirds do a show.

Who's the media really shining the negative light on here? The government or the CAF? My money is on the government.
Support for the CAF is a mile wide but an inch deep. The CAF and associated extended family are a very small percentage of the population. Very few Canadians care about the CAF or veterans unless they need them for disaster relief, have a personal connection to either or the media tells them they should care.

Except for the MND, the government at large will distance itself from the CAF, an entity unto itself, when bad news arises.
 

Remius

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Can we stop with the calls for resignation over everything ?

I mean if the best my party's can do is "off with their heads" and offer no real alternative we deserve to be the eternal bridesmaid.
I normally agree with that sentiment but there are always cases were replacing a minister is warranted. Given the current crisis and debacle I don't think it is unreasonable for the opposition to make that call. But yes, if they always call for resignations, when it is a legit call it falls flat.

But on this I don't think that O'toole is off the mark. Even the media is asking why he is still there.
 

Good2Golf

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Except for the MND, the government at large will distance itself from the CAF, an entity unto itself, when bad news arises.

🤔 It seems like the MND has been offering more platitudes and distancing himself than even the PM…
 

daftandbarmy

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🤔 It seems like the MND has been offering more platitudes and distancing himself than even the PM…

There's alot of this going on right now:

homer simpson hug GIF
 

lenaitch

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That is very location-specific. That has happened exactly twice to me - once in Comox and once in Calgary.

Where I am now (where there is a decent presence but not a "military town"), people look at me like I have 3 heads. It's actually a little awkward wearing my uniform in public.
Our daughter works in a small city with a Base and it's no uncommon to hear a local say they didn't know it was there. It's in the city limits.
 

mariomike

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It's actually a little awkward wearing my uniform in public.
Canadians may not be as used to seeing military uniforms as our neighbours to the south. They had a draft until 1973. Our last one was 1945.

Or, veterans wearing identifying clothing and insignia. How often do we see the old-timers proudly wearing their RCL jackets anymore?

Even now I think their National Guard may be more visible than our PRes. ( I am sure someone with more up to date experience will correct me, if I am wrong. )

Also, wearing ANY public service uniform off-duty in public ( while going to and from work, funeral etc. ) can be a little awkward when something, or somebody, goes down. :)
 
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