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Replacing the Subs

Colin Parkinson

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Lighters and moving cargo by hand is great if you have an island of cheap labour who speak no english and like to form cargo cults. I rather have a proper dock that makes loading and unloading faster and safer. Meaning more round trips can be made in a season.
 

KevinB

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Lighters and moving cargo by hand is great if you have an island of cheap labour who speak no english and like to form cargo cults. I rather have a proper dock that makes loading and unloading faster and safer. Meaning more round trips can be made in a season.
Piers are however fantastic targets.

I am a big fan of redundancy.

I notice the article is almost a year old with no updates -- I am curious how the summer build schedule went this year.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Piers up there are mostly corrugated sheet pile with compacted fill or the same built around concrete caissons. They actually be fairly easy to repair and hard to actually destroy.
 

JMCanada

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Back to submarines... Israeli Dolphin caught gathering intelligence near Algerian coast.

 

Kirkhill

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Further to my notion, it would also supply a more northern focus for the Yellow Fleet. And perhaps it would be worth subsidizing Viking to produce more Yellow Twin Otters, and possibly even Buffalos for local communications.

Putting together all of these mixed thoughts about Rangers, northern settlements and the need for infrastructure.

When I took a look at all the Ranger Patrols I got to seeing them as platoon sized (20 to 30 people) representatives of company sized (200 to 400 people) communities.

Which reminded of the Defence Capabilities Blueprint and the Defence Capabilities Investment Areas. These are the projects that DND is looking to prioritise for the CAF. Defence Capabilities Blueprint

WRT the Rangers some projects stuck out.
Support
Camp Sustain
500​
2030​
Tactical Power System
250​
2028​
Headquarters Shelter System
250​
2021​
Advanced Water Supply System
100​
2028​
Advanced Sub-Unit Water Purification System
250​
2023​

Tactical Power, Sub-Unit Water Purification and HQ/Emergency Shelter for 200 to 400 people would be high on the list of things useful in northern communities.


Land
Domestic Arctic Mobility Enhancement
250​
2030​
Light Utility Vehicle
500​
2029​
Common Heavy Equipment Replacement
500​
2029​
High Risk Search Capability
50​
2021​
Light Force Enhancement
100​
2028​

Access to BvS10s, LUVs as Rovers, ATVs, Backhoes and Dozers would likewise be useful.

Sea
AOPS/MPV CG
15700​
AOPS
5000​
2025​
Multi-Role Boat
100​
2026​

The AOPS/MPV end of the situation is under control (PS why are the tanks at Nanisivik being drained every season? I would hope in the future the MPVs and AOPS would drain their tanks in the coastal communities and replenish their fuel stocks for winter.

As for the multi-role boat, I know the RCN's requirement is for open RHIBs but it could be filled/expanded by adding the Danish LCP / Swedish CB-90 styles of boats that would also work in Canada's inland waters.

Air
CC-138 Twin Otter Life Extension
20​
2022​
Utility Transport Aircraft
500​
2030​
Griffon Ltd LEX
1000​
2028​
Air Force Expeditionary Capability
500​
2027​
Air Force Expeditionary Capability - Air Expeditionary Wing Set Up
20​
2020​
Air Space Coordination Centre Modernization
100​
2021​
ILS Replacement
40​
2030​
Snow and Ice control recapitalization
100​
2024​

Building a Bush Fleet around the Twin Otter and the Griffon kind of seems to make sense to me. Scatter them on rough fields in accordance with their range (200 to 500 km?).

Why add the Air Expeditionary Wing? Because emergencies happen everywhere and a forward air coordination element could come in handy.

And Snow and Ice Clearance? Because Canada.


Comms
LCSS TacCIS Mod
1000​
2029​
LCSS TacCom Mod
5000​
2033​
IMIC3 Comms
50​
2020​
MarSat Comms Upgrade
100​
2022​
Enhanced Satellite Comms - Polar
5000​
2031​
Tactical Narrowband SATCOM - GeoSync
1000​
2026​
MEO SAR
500​
2036​
SAR Mission Management System Replacement
50​
2022​
Secure Command and Control Mobile Device
50​
2027​
Secure Radio Modernization Project
500​
2026​

Finally comms - because.


So, these are all parts of the DND/CAF budget that first and foremost have utility at home, in our north, with the native communities. And could be shared with an enhance Public Safety budget administered through the DND organized Canadian Rangers.

CAF would then not be pleading for money to serve expeditionary and alliance needs. It would be pleading for money to enhance Public Safety, native relations and domestic development that could also be used from expeditionary and alliance needs.
 

Kirkhill

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WRT piers vs lighters.

How many ships visiting a year and how many tonnes off loaded? And how much variation in the nature of the shipping?

I can see justifying docks at Iqaluit, and Churchill, but how about all the other coastal communities? Do they each get a wharf? Or do they get Air Cushion barges to manage ship to shore transfers in ice-infested waters and muddy rivers with shifting courses and sand-bars surrounded by muskeg and Pingos?
 

Stoker

Army.ca Veteran
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Putting together all of these mixed thoughts about Rangers, northern settlements and the need for infrastructure.

When I took a look at all the Ranger Patrols I got to seeing them as platoon sized (20 to 30 people) representatives of company sized (200 to 400 people) communities.

Which reminded of the Defence Capabilities Blueprint and the Defence Capabilities Investment Areas. These are the projects that DND is looking to prioritise for the CAF. Defence Capabilities Blueprint

WRT the Rangers some projects stuck out.
Support
Camp Sustain
500​
2030​
Tactical Power System
250​
2028​
Headquarters Shelter System
250​
2021​
Advanced Water Supply System
100​
2028​
Advanced Sub-Unit Water Purification System
250​
2023​

Tactical Power, Sub-Unit Water Purification and HQ/Emergency Shelter for 200 to 400 people would be high on the list of things useful in northern communities.


Land
Domestic Arctic Mobility Enhancement
250​
2030​
Light Utility Vehicle
500​
2029​
Common Heavy Equipment Replacement
500​
2029​
High Risk Search Capability
50​
2021​
Light Force Enhancement
100​
2028​

Access to BvS10s, LUVs as Rovers, ATVs, Backhoes and Dozers would likewise be useful.

Sea
AOPS/MPV CG
15700​
AOPS
5000​
2025​
Multi-Role Boat
100​
2026​

The AOPS/MPV end of the situation is under control (PS why are the tanks at Nanisivik being drained every season? I would hope in the future the MPVs and AOPS would drain their tanks in the coastal communities and replenish their fuel stocks for winter.

As for the multi-role boat, I know the RCN's requirement is for open RHIBs but it could be filled/expanded by adding the Danish LCP / Swedish CB-90 styles of boats that would also work in Canada's inland waters.

Air
CC-138 Twin Otter Life Extension
20​
2022​
Utility Transport Aircraft
500​
2030​
Griffon Ltd LEX
1000​
2028​
Air Force Expeditionary Capability
500​
2027​
Air Force Expeditionary Capability - Air Expeditionary Wing Set Up
20​
2020​
Air Space Coordination Centre Modernization
100​
2021​
ILS Replacement
40​
2030​
Snow and Ice control recapitalization
100​
2024​

Building a Bush Fleet around the Twin Otter and the Griffon kind of seems to make sense to me. Scatter them on rough fields in accordance with their range (200 to 500 km?).

Why add the Air Expeditionary Wing? Because emergencies happen everywhere and a forward air coordination element could come in handy.

And Snow and Ice Clearance? Because Canada.


Comms
LCSS TacCIS Mod
1000​
2029​
LCSS TacCom Mod
5000​
2033​
IMIC3 Comms
50​
2020​
MarSat Comms Upgrade
100​
2022​
Enhanced Satellite Comms - Polar
5000​
2031​
Tactical Narrowband SATCOM - GeoSync
1000​
2026​
MEO SAR
500​
2036​
SAR Mission Management System Replacement
50​
2022​
Secure Command and Control Mobile Device
50​
2027​
Secure Radio Modernization Project
500​
2026​

Finally comms - because.


So, these are all parts of the DND/CAF budget that first and foremost have utility at home, in our north, with the native communities. And could be shared with an enhance Public Safety budget administered through the DND organized Canadian Rangers.

CAF would then not be pleading for money to serve expeditionary and alliance needs. It would be pleading for money to enhance Public Safety, native relations and domestic development that could also be used from expeditionary and alliance needs.
The current plan has the Nanisivik tanks filled by shuttle tanker out of St. John's at the beginning of the year and a private company running it until the close of the season. To prevent water and resulting microbiological growth the facility would need a system to heat the fuel. The facility is connected to the community of Arctic through a 40km road, way too much work and cost to keep open in the winter.
 

Stoker

Army.ca Veteran
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WRT piers vs lighters.

How many ships visiting a year and how many tonnes off loaded? And how much variation in the nature of the shipping?

I can see justifying docks at Iqaluit, and Churchill, but how about all the other coastal communities? Do they each get a wharf? Or do they get Air Cushion barges to manage ship to shore transfers in ice-infested waters and muddy rivers with shifting courses and sand-bars surrounded by muskeg and Pingos?
All these small communities are served by ship with barges, tugs and front end loaders that ferry the containerized cargo to the communities beach through the annual sealift.
 

Kirkhill

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The current plan has the Nanisivik tanks filled by shuttle tanker out of St. John's at the beginning of the year and a private company running it until the close of the season. To prevent water and resulting microbiological growth the facility would need a system to heat the fuel. The facility is connected to the community of Arctic through a 40km road, way too much work and cost to keep open in the winter.

Seen Stoker. Understood.

Just suggesting that there are always likely to be customers for fuel up north and the AOPS could make friends dropping off "surplus" fuel.
 

Dana381

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Three eyes now, being left out because we would rather call useless elections than spend on defense!

 

Weinie

Army.ca Veteran
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All these small communities are served by ship with barges, tugs and front end loaders that ferry the containerized cargo to the communities beach through the annual sealift.
But for how much longer will the status quo be the answer? I have little knowledge of the Canadian Arctic support system, but based on what I have read, suspect that past or current limitations/ideologies will have to be rapidly re-thunk. Are we in that space, or are we fighting/projecting current thought?
 

lenaitch

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But for how much longer will the status quo be the answer? I have little knowledge of the Canadian Arctic support system, but based on what I have read, suspect that past or current limitations/ideologies will have to be rapidly re-thunk. Are we in that space, or are we fighting/projecting current thought?

Neither do I, but I get the sense that a lot of the Arctic communities have shallow water shorelines, necessitating a dock or jetty which could end up being quite long. Mix that in with a structure that would have to withstand significant ice pressure.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Neither do I, but I get the sense that a lot of the Arctic communities have shallow water shorelines, necessitating a dock or jetty which could end up being quite long. Mix that in with a structure that would have to withstand significant ice pressure.
Building in a bay helps reduce ice pressure as the surrounding lands keep the worst of of the dock. Mulberry like docks could be floated into place, sunk and then a structure built around them (corrugated sheet pile) and fill pushed inside. the beauty of that system is you can do 1-2 sections a season and make the cassions deeper as you go out and put jack up legs on them to level them.
 

Czech_pivo

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Russia announcing something rather interesting occurring in the Barents Sea and the White Sea

Russia test-fires new hypersonic missile from a nuclear submarine​


 

Eye In The Sky

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the Americans and the Russians both building extremely advanced and quiet boats that could unilaterally destroy half the cities on the globe if they so chose to

I would include China...the UK has "bombers", too, as well as France. I think China, personally, is the country to focus on in that group.
 
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