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My University Sacrificed Ideas for Ideology. So Today I Quit.

CBH99

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Most of our workforce problems are self-inflicted in terms of not being able to find people. The people are there, the standards we requiring for opening positions are the problem. Our education system isn't doing anyone favours anymore, and is becoming what is holding back our society.
The last few years, everybody I know has made similar comments. And it’s true.

I know one guy who has been going through an exceptionally hard time (not the 1st world problem kind of hard time) where he was an Air Traffic Controller in Turkey for roughly a decade, and worked ATC out of Paris also.

He now works construction, because his training/experience isn’t recognized.


The guy who works night shift at the A&W across the street worked in India’s largest cancer hospital, in their lab.

He wanted to go into something similar here, but didn’t want to start from scratch - so he paid the $11,000 and has to wait up to 1 year for a ‘college of lab techs’ to simply call and verify his training/employment so he can bypass his 1st year.


These are self-inflicted wounds indeed.
 

dimsum

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I know one guy who has been going through an exceptionally hard time (not the 1st world problem kind of hard time) where he was an Air Traffic Controller in Turkey for roughly a decade, and worked ATC out of Paris also.

He now works construction, because his training/experience isn’t recognized.
I didn't think NAV Canada would reject someone who has controlled at CDG or Orly.
 

CBH99

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Most of our workforce problems are self-inflicted in terms of not being able to find people. The people are there, the standards we requiring for opening positions are the problem. Our education system isn't doing anyone favours anymore, and is becoming what is holding back our society.
The last few years, everybody I know has made similar comments. And it’s true.

I know one guy who has been going through an exceptionally hard time (not the 1st world problem kind of hard time) where he was an Air Traffic Controller in Turkey for roughly a decade, and worked ATC out of Paris also.

He now works construction, because his training/experience isn’t recognized.


The guy who works night shift at the A&W across the street worked in India’s largest cancer hospital, in their lab.

He wanted to go into something similar here, but didn’t want to start from scratch - so he paid the ‘college of lab techs’ around $11,000 and has to wait roughly 1 year for them to simply call/verify his education/employment.



We are indeed inflicting our own wounds
 

OldSolduer

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I didn't think NAV Canada would reject someone who has controlled at CDG or Orly.
IMO uneducated opinion Canada tends to have a bias towards anyone who got a degree or certificate or qualification in the Middle East and SW Asia.
 

HiTechComms

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IMO uneducated opinion Canada tends to have a bias towards anyone who got a degree or certificate or qualification in the Middle East and SW Asia.
Having lived in Asia, and also working in IT. Not all of this is not unwarranted. The level of Academic corruption, cheating, bribery and general level of incompetence amongst the supposedly educated is astounding. Some of the best and some of the worst I have professionally encountered came out of those regions.
 

HiTechComms

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The last few years, everybody I know has made similar comments. And it’s true.

I know one guy who has been going through an exceptionally hard time (not the 1st world problem kind of hard time) where he was an Air Traffic Controller in Turkey for roughly a decade, and worked ATC out of Paris also.

He now works construction, because his training/experience isn’t recognized.


The guy who works night shift at the A&W across the street worked in India’s largest cancer hospital, in their lab.

He wanted to go into something similar here, but didn’t want to start from scratch - so he paid the ‘college of lab techs’ around $11,000 and has to wait roughly 1 year for them to simply call/verify his education/employment.



We are indeed inflicting our own wounds
I know some one with a very specific engineering degree and she couldn't be an engineer in Canada because this degree is only granted in three places on earth. Not to mention getting work is nigh since the industry in Canada is none existent. She didn't want to go to USA and just ended up wasting her talents and skills in Canada.

I also know a lot of IT workers that simply work in Canada but don't want to be Canadian citizens because they would lose their citizenship's. The world is improving, standards and quality of life are rising and Canada is no longer this supposed land of milk and honey. I have friends and family that fully intend to go back to their home countries and retire there. Canada is stagnated now it seems Canada is a "educational" destination, and its also very questionable quality as well.

Universities in Canada are based on "generalized" bachelor education. This is a 400 year old formula and it hasn't changed nor progressed. The world is becoming more specialized not generalized. Universities are dinosaurs heading for extinction for this reason. Just compare SAIT and NAIT sizes and their explosion of popularity in comparison to Universities.

Back in the birth country everyone always made fun of University students because it was always regarded as a place were those that couldn't hack it went. Ploytechniques were the really insanely difficult schools that separated wheat from chaff. Oh and Education is free but you needed ti marks that were in the 90% just to get in.
 
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Eaglelord17

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Fair, but I'm not sure how that could be prevented. Uni lecturers for even first-year courses probably have at least a Masters, if not PhD in their fields. That would imply that they've spent a significant part of their life in that educational field.

One option would be to require they go on sabbatical to a "work term", for lack of a better phrase, in something that's related. That wouldn't be realistic for some fields.
A starter would be recognizing that we need skilled labour and we need to start directing people into it at a young age (16ish). To use the UK as a example they forecast what trades are needed. They then offer apprenticeships to people at 16 years old. They are paid a low rate (around minimum wage) but thats fine when your starting out. If you don't like the specific trade you started you can get switched into something else (i.e. I don't like being a Millwright but barrel maker seems like fun). The result is we get qualified trades people by 20-24, instead of the current model where most the apprentices I am working with are in their late 20s and up. They also don't have to retain the apprentice after they are certified so if you aren't particularly good or the company doesn't have a spot for you you can go find work elsewhere. Which if in the case you aren't competent 25 and under isn't a bad place to have to go find another career.

The early years are the most important for education, before 25 your brain is still developing. After 25 it gets harder to teach people things. You also lose out on many years of productive trades work for questionable schooling. If I take a 2 year program and get taught basically the same stuff I will in trades school that is redundant education and not needed. The schooling also gets filled with fluff courses only there to provide otherwise unemployable teachers with a job (i.e. english, global citizenship, etc.)

In the past couple of years we've hired three people, all under 30 years old and all with Master's Degrees, who have turned out to be first class. Two of them came right from university.

Something's going right, in some quarters, I would say.
It is not necessarily that everything is going wrong, but we are slowly losing the big picture. This trades shortage didn't come about overnight, it was over decades of poor education and practices which lead to here. I know people entering the trades with university degrees because there was nothing for them with their (as they put it) worthless bachelor degree.

It isn't that people who go to university aren't smart or not, people are people, some are competent, some aren't. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses and different jobs play off different ones. The important part is trying to recognize university doesn't work for everyone, and it isn't there to indoctrinate.
This.

Unfortunately for the last 30+ years the pathways laid out for young adults have been built by those who often have no "real world" experience. Going from high school, to Uni, to Teachers College and entering the workforce as a teacher, with no degree of mastery in life skills.

Gone are the days of a professional deciding to pivot their career, and do the year in teachers college before entering academics to finish out their career....I saw a scarce few of these before I left high school.

High schools that taught trades were dubbed "half knowledge college" and eventually many of their trades programs were deleted, as they were too costly, or had a higher degree of risk, which school boards were unwilling to bear.

The average age of a brick / stone mason in Ontario is over 50, no one wants to get into those trades, yet anyone who does can now command a kings ransom for their work. Or better yet, try finding an individual or business skilled at doing terazzo floors.....
Unfortunately many in the trades can't become teachers easily anymore. Having to take one to two years out of work to get a teaching degree when your being paid as well as they are isn't worth it for most.
You may have a point.

My department required a high school ( science ) diploma when I hired on.
Then a one-year college certificate. Then a two-year diploma.
Now, recruits have a four-year Honours Bachelor of Science degree.

What effect that has had on effectiveness is debateable.
CAF has this with the Officer corps as well. Is it better to take a 18 year old and train them to be a leader right away, or send them to school for four years to then train them to be a leader? Overall I don't think it makes much of a difference one way or another.
The last few years, everybody I know has made similar comments. And it’s true.

I know one guy who has been going through an exceptionally hard time (not the 1st world problem kind of hard time) where he was an Air Traffic Controller in Turkey for roughly a decade, and worked ATC out of Paris also.

He now works construction, because his training/experience isn’t recognized.


The guy who works night shift at the A&W across the street worked in India’s largest cancer hospital, in their lab.

He wanted to go into something similar here, but didn’t want to start from scratch - so he paid the $11,000 and has to wait up to 1 year for a ‘college of lab techs’ to simply call and verify his training/employment so he can bypass his 1st year.


These are self-inflicted wounds indeed.
Society is screaming for these jobs but we refuse to train in them. My cousin works for a heavy duty diesel shop and was trying to recruit two people for the job. Going on and on about people being too lazy to work. I told him I have a friend who would take up the apprenticeship in a heart beat and he said they were only looking for tradespeople and registered apprentices. Basically only wanting people already qualified. It isn't a laziness problem, its a unwillingness to train problem.
 

Colin Parkinson

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The last few years, everybody I know has made similar comments. And it’s true.

I know one guy who has been going through an exceptionally hard time (not the 1st world problem kind of hard time) where he was an Air Traffic Controller in Turkey for roughly a decade, and worked ATC out of Paris also.

He now works construction, because his training/experience isn’t recognized.


The guy who works night shift at the A&W across the street worked in India’s largest cancer hospital, in their lab.

He wanted to go into something similar here, but didn’t want to start from scratch - so he paid the $11,000 and has to wait up to 1 year for a ‘college of lab techs’ to simply call and verify his training/employment so he can bypass his 1st year.


These are self-inflicted wounds indeed.
Similar in law, wife did 7 years of criminal/civil law in Malaysia where they have the death penalty and whippings. Came here and she had to jump through all the hops including "pretend court", she and the other students in the "court" were complimented on their performance, the instructor asked about their backgrounds, the other student was a judge from Germany, the instructor looked embarrassed for putting them through the charade. They should be only required to write the Bar, but nope the UBC/SFU degree holders rice bowl must be maintained! Same crap when my girlfriend who was a teacher from Quebec and the BCTF would not recognise her 2nd degree in special ed, from the University of Montreal. My opinion of universities and professional associations is not very high. Basically a legal protection racket.
 

Kat Stevens

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I have needed Carpenters. I have needed plumbers. I have needed electricians. I have needed a mechanic more than a couple of times. Never once in my 60 years on this planet have I needed a political scientist (whatever TF that is), a CPA, or an astrophysicist. Very seldom have I needed a philosopher, unless it was to pour me a grande Americano at Starbucks.
 

mariomike

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HiTechComms

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I didn't mean leaders at HQ.

It's pretty sad to see university graduates start at a local station, and quickly realize they are in the wrong business.
How many 18 year olds actually want to join the armed forces? (Serious question) All I ever hear is the "we are in the red" I am an old fart by comparison but I have an absolute advantage in the fact I have nothing hold me down.
 

daftandbarmy

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How many 18 year olds actually want to join the armed forces? (Serious question) All I ever hear is the "we are in the red" I am an old fart by comparison but I have an absolute advantage in the fact I have nothing hold me down.

Every rifle company I've been part of since the late 70s was full of them so I assume the answer is 'enough' ;)
 

Czech_pivo

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Having lived in Asia, and also working in IT. Not all of this is not unwarranted. The level of Academic corruption, cheating, bribery and general level of incompetence amongst the supposedly educated is astounding. Some of the best and some of the worst I have professionally encountered came out of those regions.
I concur.
Two decades of experience working for each of the Big 5 who’ve outsourced various departments to that area of the world. Simple tasks are fine, but any type of analysis, independent thinking or multi-step process and it all goes tits up.
 

Humphrey Bogart

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In the past couple of years we've hired three people, all under 30 years old and all with Master's Degrees, who have turned out to be first class. Two of them came right from university.

Something's going right, in some quarters, I would say.

I think mileage may vary and be dependent on what program one is studying. I've looked at some education programs and I think the most appealing ones are in the Schools that are heavily subsidized by Industries they support. Professional Schools like Forestry, Various Engineering Depts, Business Schools, etc, all provide value for money in that they are supported by the various Industries/Corporations they feed in to.

The Forestry School at UNB, for example, is basically JD Irving's corporate training centre and most of the students get funneled in to the Forestry Industry in NB. JD Irving funds COOP programs throughout the 4 year program and if the students perform, they are offered full-time employment at the end of it all.

Education is important but one needs to choose carefully when picking a program and ensure it actually leads to something afterwards.
 

daftandbarmy

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I think mileage may vary and be dependent on what program one is studying. I've looked at some education programs and I think the most appealing ones are in the Schools that are heavily subsidized by Industries they support. Professional Schools like Forestry, Various Engineering Depts, Business Schools, etc, all provide value for money in that they are supported by the various Industries/Corporations they feed in to.

The Forestry School at UNB, for example, is basically JD Irving's corporate training centre and most of the students get funneled in to the Forestry Industry in NB. JD Irving funds COOP programs throughout the 4 year program and if the students perform, they are offered full-time employment at the end of it all.

Education is important but one needs to choose carefully when picking a program and ensure it actually leads to something afterwards.

We're hiring MBAs right now and the competition is fierce, apparently!

Not so much in History, which is my first degree ;)
 

CBH99

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We're hiring MBAs right now and the competition is fierce, apparently!

Not so much in History, which is my first degree ;)
But that gives you so much more depth in understanding ‘why’ the world is the way it is.

Tangible benefit to a business? Perhaps. But understanding history is such an underrated source of wisdom in some ways.
 

CBH99

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I think mileage may vary and be dependent on what program one is studying. I've looked at some education programs and I think the most appealing ones are in the Schools that are heavily subsidized by Industries they support. Professional Schools like Forestry, Various Engineering Depts, Business Schools, etc, all provide value for money in that they are supported by the various Industries/Corporations they feed in to.

The Forestry School at UNB, for example, is basically JD Irving's corporate training centre and most of the students get funneled in to the Forestry Industry in NB. JD Irving funds COOP programs throughout the 4 year program and if the students perform, they are offered full-time employment at the end of it all.

Education is important but one needs to choose carefully when picking a program and ensure it actually leads to something afterwards.
I totally agree.

I always wish I could go back in time to when I was like 19yrs old (as I’m sure we all do!)

I meet young adults who work in healthcare, who - for example - did a 2yr condensed course (so basically like 1yr) and become an X-Ray tech, working in a hospital and starts at like $27/hr.

Those smaller schools that feed their students directly into the industry they are treating for may sometimes suffer a stigma, but most of them really are a good bang for your buck/time.
 
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