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Informing the Army’s Future Structure

daftandbarmy

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In BC, you might be somewhere with lots of snow but it’s only -5C, or somewhere where it’s-20C but only have half an inch of snow. Not great “Arctic” training!

OTOH, pukka mountain troops are ski mountaineers, and this is perfect terrain for that kind of training.
 

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Kirkhill

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They aren’t. Access to high altitude areas of BC is a pretty unlikely task for the reserves and in an emergency they’d probably end up contracting heavy machinery to get in.

Sfunny. The High Altitude areas of BC begin at about 1000 m. Pretty much the altitude of Mean Ground Level in Alberta.

BC Drives Uphill to Rogers Pass. Alberta starts going Downhill there.


The Brigade should have a store of LOSVs for issue though, in a perfect world.

And Quads, and MOSVs/Bv206s/BVS10s, and RHIBs.

What does this Maritime Respnnse Company mean ? What does it look like, what is it’s possible role?

It replicates the capabilities of the Arctic Response Company Group in the Southern Canadian Littorals when supported by the RCN as well as the RCAF.

It replaces Over Snow Vehicles with boats and BVS10s.

And yeah, it will take dollars away from LAVs, Leos and SPHs.
 

Blackadder1916

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OTOH, pukka mountain troops are ski mountaineers, and this is perfect terrain for that kind of training.

Mountains, who needs mountains?

83514.jpg
Original Toronto Star caption: Canada's first ski school for training soldiers in the type of winter warfare waged so successfully by the Finns against the Russians has just opened on the dominion experiemental farm at Ottawa. Here is Lieut. Thomas P. Gilday; chief instructor; giving his class an introductory lesson to their three-week course.

83510.jpg
Original Toronto Star caption: With the mercury well be; the students who will train ski troops across Canada this winter refused a lift up by day to get in some extra travel actoss the rolling bush country at the Dominion experimental farm. For fighting on skis; cross-country and bush skiers are preferred to jumpers
 

FJAG

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Going off what others have been posting, would this orbat make any sense?
It makes sense to me.

The issue with 'elevation' on the coast is access: one dump of snow can either stop you from getting in, or out, of 99% of suitable winter training locations.
Just an observation. I spent two winters doing avalanche control in Rogers Pass. The Trans Canada was accessible 99% of the time but if you went off the road by a hundred metres you were in up to five to ten feet of snow and terrain easily useable for winter training (hell, the place gets over 400 inches per year). I'm not saying one needs to go to Rogers Pass as there are numerous accessible roads and areas further west with good dependable winter training conditions close at hand. Winter/Arctic training generally doesn't need much space nor a live fire range to be useful. In an area as large as the BC mountains, 1% is plenty of room.

🍻
 

daftandbarmy

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It makes sense to me.


Just an observation. I spent two winters doing avalanche control in Rogers Pass. The Trans Canada was accessible 99% of the time but if you went off the road by a hundred metres you were in up to five to ten feet of snow and terrain easily useable for winter training (hell, the place gets over 400 inches per year). I'm not saying one needs to go to Rogers Pass as there are numerous accessible roads and areas further west with good dependable winter training conditions close at hand. Winter/Arctic training generally doesn't need much space nor a live fire range to be useful. In an area as large as the BC mountains, 1% is plenty of room.

🍻

Sadly, many of those who would lead such activities have no idea what they are doing in this regard. This can be fatal on the West Coast in winter, where avalanches reign supreme.

A few years ago I had a hell of a time convincing a not to be named unit from running a winter ex in a dangerous avalanche zone. They kept pushing back until I sent them the avvie conditions website, which was open source (they just had no idea where to look).

I knew some Alpine Club folks who went into the same area, the same weekend, and they described a gigantic avalanche that closed the logging road this unit would have been using for their proposed exercise.
 

markppcli

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Sfunny. The High Altitude areas of BC begin at about 1000 m. Pretty much the altitude of Mean Ground Level in Alberta.

BC Drives Uphill to Rogers Pass. Alberta starts going Downhill there.




And Quads, and MOSVs/Bv206s/BVS10s, and RHIBs.

So the boats already held by CERs check, quads held in units, their utility is… eh.
It replicates the capabilities of the Arctic Response Company Group in the Southern Canadian Littorals when supported by the RCN as well as the RCAF.

To achieve what? Based out of where ? How are they going to deploy from ship to shore ?

It replaces Over Snow Vehicles with boats and BVS10s.

My concern is more that your adding a great deal more complexity to doctrine and skills we don’t have. To achieve something you have articulated.
And yeah, it will take dollars away from LAVs, Leos and SPHs.
Don’t be petulant, it’s beneath you.
 

markppcli

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Sadly, many of those who would lead such activities have no idea what they are doing in this regard. This can be fatal on the West Coast in winter, where avalanches reign supreme.

A few years ago I had a hell of a time convincing a not to be named unit from running a winter ex in a dangerous avalanche zone. They kept pushing back until I sent them the avvie conditions website, which was open source (they just had no idea where to look).

I knew some Alpine Club folks who went into the same area, the same weekend, and they described a gigantic avalanche that closed the logging road this unit would have been using for their proposed exercise.
I was lucky enough to do a “winter mobility” course in prep for Op Podium. It pains me deeply to see what all of that equipment is left to rot and the skills learned have been allowed to perish. I came out a firm believer in the superiority of skis, and understood how to get into high country and assess a snow pack. Lost skills now.
 

daftandbarmy

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I was lucky enough to do a “winter mobility” course in prep for Op Podium. It pains me deeply to see what all of that equipment is left to rot and the skills learned have been allowed to perish. I came out a firm believer in the superiority of skis, and understood how to get into high country and assess a snow pack. Lost skills now.

I tried to secure some of those OP PODIUM skis for winter training, but failed miserably...
 

markppcli

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I tried to secure some of those OP PODIUM skis for winter training, but failed miserably...
Last time I saw them they were in CMBG and issued out for adventure training. If it were up to me they’d be issued 1 per man to each infantry unit in the Army… probably need a bit of white spray paint to be fair.
 

FJAG

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Sadly, many of those who would lead such activities have no idea what they are doing in this regard. This can be fatal on the West Coast in winter, where avalanches reign supreme.

A few years ago I had a hell of a time convincing a not to be named unit from running a winter ex in a dangerous avalanche zone. They kept pushing back until I sent them the avvie conditions website, which was open source (they just had no idea where to look).

I knew some Alpine Club folks who went into the same area, the same weekend, and they described a gigantic avalanche that closed the logging road this unit would have been using for their proposed exercise.
Yup.

Hence "Avalanche Control Det" and the "Snow Research and Avalanche Warning Section" at Rogers. There are experts who can help with these things if one but asks.

;)
 

Kirkhill

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So the boats already held by CERs check, quads held in units, their utility is… eh.

Presence of boats. Great.
Quads - agree - not for unit holding. Held at Division for distribution along with the MOSVs - perhaps held in a transport company/platoon of one of the Service Battalions?

To achieve what? Based out of where ? How are they going to deploy from ship to shore ?

To be able to deploy where Canadians are in a timely fashion to help them manage situations they can't manage with their own resources. Similar rationale to the presence of the AOPS and the ARCGs. A rallying point. An action team.

As to TTPs - all to play for.

My concern is more that your adding a great deal more complexity to doctrine and skills we don’t have. To achieve something you have articulated.

In a sense you are correct. In part that is because I continue to chase my tail arguing the cause for effective DOMOPs capabilities that will both free up the Reg Force for targeted capabilities that Ottawa can decide to deploy if the politics warrant and also make the CAF and the Reserves more pertinent to the General Public. I believe in the value of the SAR fleet of Yellowbirds. I believe in the value of a General Purpose Light Force, well supported with service support, logistics and comms that can be applied to any situation including combat.


Don’t be petulant, it’s beneath you.

Thanks for the get out jail free card. Appreciated. Sometimes my snark switch slips.

Lets just say that I recognize that the capability will require reallocation of funds. My belief is that the dividends paid from proving relevance to Canadians will result in more support for defence budgets generally. It may not work. But ... what else has worked.
 

markppcli

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Without the ability to go ship to shore, and some very detailed planning, that’s wasted effort. Those are, I assume, skills and drills you don’t want to be assigning 2 days of training to a year.
 

Kirkhill

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Without the ability to go ship to shore, and some very detailed planning, that’s wasted effort. Those are, I assume, skills and drills you don’t want to be assigning 2 days of training to a year.

Absolutely. Perhaps cross-training with the Naval Reserve could diminish the hump?
 

daftandbarmy

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Kirkhill

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You mean like this?



Funny that the equipment sets employed in the Canadian Reserve Exercise and the real life Ukrainian Insertion Operation don't look radically different to this unschooled civilian.
 

markppcli

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Absolutely. Perhaps cross-training with the Naval Reserve could diminish the hump?
Why would they deploy from Kingston class ships or a pool in Regina ?

Good for 39 Brigade for doing that, that’s awesome skill development. I maintain that to be able to do it as a “response” probably means higher flash to bang but good on them.
 

Kirkhill

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Well, perhaps, rather than each Brigade being tasked to supply one Company Response Group the tasking could still be a Divisional Tasking

For example

3 Div to supply 2x ARCGs and 1x Maritime RCG (Pacific)
4 Div to supply 2x ARCGs and 1x Maritime RCG (Great Lakes)
2 Div to supply 1x ARCG and 1x Maritime RCG (St Lawrence)
5 Div to supply 1x ARCG and 1x Maritime RCG (Atlantic)

Troops drawn from across the division to create an embryonic capability that can be permitted to grow. Flash to Bang will shorten with practice.
 

Skysix

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"[The Finnish] Army is sporting roughly 3,500 full-time personnel, while the wartime mobilised strength is approximately 160,000, i.e. less than 2.5 % of the mobilised force would be professionals. Take that ratio, and in a 300-strong company you are looking at less than eight professional officers and NCOs."


Interestingly, conscript trades and leadership candidates are chosen by cadre during their first 12 weeks of service
 

KevinB

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"[The Finnish] Army is sporting roughly 3,500 full-time personnel, while the wartime mobilised strength is approximately 160,000, i.e. less than 2.5 % of the mobilised force would be professionals. Take that ratio, and in a 300-strong company you are looking at less than eight professional officers and NCOs."


Interestingly, conscript trades and leadership candidates are chosen by cadre during their first 12 weeks of service

But they intake 18,400 conscripts annually, and another 18,400 reservists are mobilized annually for refresher training.

So they have in addition to the cadre, over 36k personnel in active service.

They have an interesting system, but I don’t think it would work for Canada.
 

ueo

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Sfunny. The High Altitude areas of BC begin at about 1000 m. Pretty much the altitude of Mean Ground Level in Alberta.

BC Drives Uphill to Rogers Pass. Alberta starts going Downhill there.




And Quads, and MOSVs/Bv206s/BVS10s, and RHIBs.



It replicates the capabilities of the Arctic Response Company Group in the Southern Canadian Littorals when supported by the RCN as well as the RCAF.

It replaces Over Snow Vehicles with boats and BVS10s.

And yeah, it will take dollars away from LAVs, Leos and SPHs.
Southern littorials- does this include the great lakes. Mackenzie delta and other areas?
 
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