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General Vance - Inappropriate conduct?

Mediman14

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No, but some get 'drivers'.

Yes, some do get drivers. Yet some get officers! I remember during one of my postings, the CMP dropped by a chat, there was some suggestions made to him, in return he got his LCol to send a email to whoever to make changes. Doesn't that count as a assistant? Perhaps a overpaid, glorified assistant!
 

Mediman14

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retired with a payout. He was just in the news suggesting that the Navy start bracing itself for blowback on the price of the new fleet. Perhaps a new career as GG? Now that would demonstrate Justin's capacity for justice.
That certainly would!! I once met Norman during my posting on the Iroquois. From what I remember, he was the only officer invited into the Jnr mess. He seemed pretty decent at the time.
 

Mediman14

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2 - Depending on the unit, there can be close relationships between different ranks; it is not all that odd for senior CAF members to offer to help or advise more junior ones with their careers.
I always seen this happen. The only thing is that there was always some type of involvement in the more Junior PER's. I always hated it, and fought this all the time. I have seen first year Cpl's get immediate, I have seen first year MCpl's get immediate. That was the way it was all the time.
 

daftandbarmy

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I always seen this happen. The only thing is that there was always some type of involvement in the more Junior PER's. I always hated it, and fought this all the time. I have seen first year Cpl's get immediate, I have seen first year MCpl's get immediate. That was the way it was all the time.

Rampant favouritism fuelled by some first class professional 'sucking up', then?
 

Mediman14

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Rampant favouritism fuelled by some first class professional 'sucking up', then?
Rampant favouritism at play. Asking for advice on how to improve within your occupation is a way of saying to some people, "How much you get to shine at work depends on who you get close to"!
 

FormerHorseGuard

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I worked as a Corporal at an army HQ, I had face to face meetings with the MGen in charge at the time. I never just popped into his office and he would share a joke with me. I was always sent there after the request for whatever came down the COC. I would walk there, have him sign for his Pay Cheque and I would salute and leave. Cpl and MGen do not mix outside of work or bosses night at the JR rank Mess. Just wrong but I am old army I guess and my lack of current army knowledge is limited.
 

Haggis

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(VAdm Norman) retired with a payout. He was just in the news suggesting that the Navy start bracing itself for blowback on the price of the new fleet. Perhaps a new career as GG? Now that would demonstrate Justin's capacity for justice.
Not a chance. The PM convicted him in the court of public opinion.
 

Weinie

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FJAG will likely weigh in here, and I welcome his experience/perspective.

The CDS is a Governor in Council appt. Don't know what that means in terms of who has authority/responsibility/accountability to investigate misconduct for this, but those three ARA's could all have significantly different tracks/outcomes.

The basic premise of the NDA is exercised under the authority of the CDS, who by virtue of rank, can apply judgement to any subordinate as deemed appropriate by the findings of a CM. Should Gen Vance be court-martialed, can the current CDS exert punishment over someone of equal rank?

If not a CM, and they opt for a civilian option, as in the case of the GG recently, what powers does a third party have to compel testimony?

I'm not much of a grab popcorn and watch guy, but may have to develop the habit.
 

Jarnhamar

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I'm not much of a grab popcorn and watch guy, but may have to develop the habit.
I'm thinking if Admiral McDonald doesn't take it seriously he's going to immediately loose the respect of the CAF.
 

Weinie

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I'm thinking if Admiral McDonald doesn't take it seriously he's going to immediately loose the respect of the CAF.
Or, by virtue of it being a Governor in Council appointment, (and subsequent non-CAF investigation) he gets a hard bye into the finals where, after all the hard work and decisions are made, can wax euphoric. There are advantages and disadvantages for him in both of these scenarios.
 

Ostrozac

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Should Gen Vance be court-martialed, can the current CDS exert punishment over someone of equal rank?
Probably, but he might have to be on the court-martial panel itself, along with four other GO/FOs.

From the NDA:
Ranks for trial of brigadier-general or above
If the accused person is of or above the rank of brigadier-general, the senior member of the panel must be an officer of or above the rank of the accused person and the other members of the panel must be of or above the rank of colonel.


Putting aside whether it would be a good use of the taxpayers time and money to commit the time of 5 General Officers, including the CDS, during an ongoing global crisis, there’s real damage to be done. It really doesn’t matter what happens to now-Mister Vance. He is, in effect, expendable. The problem is the potential damage to the institution — coming up with detailed procedures for “Contingency plan for when our most senior General is a suspected sex offender” harms the credibility of the office, just as it did when we had to handle the “What do we do when the Chief Military Judge likes to commit fraud on his travel claims”. Just as with discipline for the GG, this forces us to ask questions that are usually left unasked.
 

Weinie

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Probably, but he might have to be on the court-martial panel itself, along with four other GO/FOs.

From the NDA:
Ranks for trial of brigadier-general or above
If the accused person is of or above the rank of brigadier-general, the senior member of the panel must be an officer of or above the rank of the accused person and the other members of the panel must be of or above the rank of colonel.

Putting aside whether it would be a good use of the taxpayers time and money to commit the time of 5 General Officers, including the CDS, during an ongoing global crisis, there’s real damage to be done. It really doesn’t matter what happens to now-Mister Vance. He is, in effect, expendable. The problem is the potential damage to the institution — coming up with detailed procedures for “Contingency plan for when our most senior General is a suspected sex offender” harms the credibility of the office, just as it did when we had to handle the “What do we do when the Chief Military Judge likes to commit fraud on his travel claims”. Just as with discipline for the GG, this forces us to ask questions that are usually left unasked.
Thus my point. But now we have to ask the questions, and must answer them, during a global crisis.

I have lived through various Defence/CAF scandals. Those that got short shrift on the front end from the CoC generally came back to bite us in the arse, and rightly so. Had you asked me as a Public Affairs Officer in 2010 to list the 1000 worst things that could happen to damage/erode CAF credibility, I would never have guessed in a million years that the Wing Commander in Trenton would turn out to be a serial rapist and murderer, but that happened. It was a precedent in the CAF as well, one that we had to deal with to prevent real damage to the institution. I believe we did so effectively.

The allegations against the former CDS obviously don't compare to the scale of Russell Williams heinous acts, but they still have the very real ability to shake institutional confidence, both internally and externally.

A civilian process simplifies some things re the above, but then lacks the concomitant authority to compel witnesses/testimony. I don't begrudge those who will have to decide on the way forward.
 

Fishbone Jones

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Is he in fact, Mr Vance? No leave to burn off? No paperwork to clean up? Also, does the NDA not also allow for charging of someone already released?
 

FJAG

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FJAG will likely weigh in here, and I welcome his experience/perspective.

The CDS is a Governor in Council appt. Don't know what that means in terms of who has authority/responsibility/accountability to investigate misconduct for this, but those three ARA's could all have significantly different tracks/outcomes.
The fact that the CDS is a GoC appointment doesn't matter, the CDS is still a member of the CAF and standard procedures for the investigation still apply.

Before the whole Dutil thing I would have thought this matter wouldn't have been an issue but since then I've basically comes to the conclusion that there are a number of defects in the system which could be easily remedied by providing for an ad hoc superior court judge from one of the civilian criminal courts handle the case (even from the Federal Court although their criminal experience at the trial level is very limited).

I don't really see a superior officer issue because the military court is independent of the chain of command (when the CoC isn't making up dumb administrative policies which backhandedly defeat that) and the fact that the individual under investigation is now an ex-CDS.

My guess is that the investigation will continue under the CFNIS and, if appropriate, charges could be preferred through the ordinary course by either the CFNIS or DMP.
The basic premise of the NDA is exercised under the authority of the CDS, who by virtue of rank, can apply judgement to any subordinate as deemed appropriate by the findings of a CM. Should Gen Vance be court-martialed, can the current CDS exert punishment over someone of equal rank?
The superintendence of the military justice system is in the hands of the JAG under NDA s9.2(1). The chain of command has by and large been removed from the convening authority aspect of the preferral of charges to CM responsibility. Judgement as to conviction and sentence comes through the trial judge, CMAC and SCC. There are some elements that remain with the CoC (such as being review authorities after conviction under NDA s 249(1)-(4) seq.) However, with him being an ex-CDS, those don't really matter.
On the other hand, I can see the review authority provisions being a large impediment to the trial of a sitting CDS as to who would be able to exercise that function. Like I said, the Dutil issued opened up a large can of procedural worms that would apply equally to a CDS and which need resolving.
If not a CM, and they opt for a civilian option, as in the case of the GG recently, what powers does a third party have to compel testimony?
Under the current laws, there is no ability to refer to a civilian court unless the offence is one that would be a civilian offence as much as a military one and the prosecutors agree on who has jurisdiction. The allegations that I have seen in the papers do not suggest any civilian criminal offence.
I'm not much of a grab popcorn and watch guy, but may have to develop the habit.
Yeah. I see that. Bottom line - the CAF has another black eye that it will be wearing for quite a while.

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