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Disobeying an unlawful/unethical order - Mandatory Vaccinations

KevinB

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You're making an assumption. There's plenty of reasons folks don't want it. Brow beating them, taking thier pay away and dehumanizing them by labeling them anti-vaxxers seems like it's working though, right?

I guess it's just like our COVID-19 lockdown and mask measures. It hasn't stopped 3 waves but if we just do the same stuff over again but harder it'll totally work this time!
You make the mistake that it was designed to do that.

It was simply designed to slow the spread - so the ICU's wouldn't all be totally packed and people dying at rates vastly higher than they do now.
 

dimsum

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You make the mistake that it was designed to do that.

It was simply designed to slow the spread - so the ICU's wouldn't all be totally packed and people dying at rates vastly higher than they do now.
Exactly. Remember "Flatten the curve"?

The easy part is the Surgeon General/D Med Pol changing the enrollment or continued service vaccination standard so those who don't want COVID19 vaccination now beach UoS. It's quite another to make up a rule to stop someone's pay abruptly, and that's a pretty slippery slope. How many suicides are you willing to accept for a policy like this, which instead of respectfully transitioning someone out of service, forces them to choose feeding thier family over deeply held beliefs?
So, basically the same stance as other employers (both public and private sector) have been doing?

One can't even use the line that "the CAF made us do this" or "injury due to service" - the CAF specifically did not mandate a vaccine. For all we know (I'm not in the loop here) it could be an expedited release so that the former CAF member can find work elsewhere.
 

Navy_Pete

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Exactly. Remember "Flatten the curve"?


So, basically the same stance as other employers (both public and private sector) have been doing?

One can't even use the line that "the CAF made us do this" or "injury due to service" - the CAF specifically did not mandate a vaccine. For all we know (I'm not in the loop here) it could be an expedited release so that the former CAF member can find work elsewhere.
Good luck with that, the easiest transition for a lot of CAF members is into defence related positions that require access to DND properties. If I was hiring people I'd probably play it safe and assume that would require COVID vaccination at some point to do the job, and employers are free to have their own vaccine mandates as well regardless. I think being non-vaccinated will be career limiting fairly globally, and also prevent folks from traveling etc.

While our vacc rates in Canada is pretty high, still in single digits in a lot of countries, so going to be a few years until this global pandemic is under control globally.

I've still yet to hear a 'firmly held belief' that isn't rooted in misinformation/lies. Vaccines don't cause autism (haven't 'leveled up' yet). When you get a vaccine, you are creating a natural immunity so that your immune system can fight the real thing (it's like sending your immune system onpre-deployment training), so it is still your immune system protecting yoy. And so far, I haven't got a Wifi, 5G or other boost, so it's a bit disappointing.
 

ModlrMike

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Getting a vaccine is analogous to living in an old western movie:

The government sends a wanted poster (vaccine) to the sheriff (immune system) who rounds up a posse (antibodies) for when the villain (infectious agent) appears.
 

Blackadder1916

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Getting a vaccine is analogous to living in an old western movie:

The government sends a wanted poster (vaccine) to the sheriff (immune system) who rounds up a posse (antibodies) for when the villain (infectious agent) appears.

To carry the analogy further, the anti-vaxxers

 

mariomike

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I've still yet to hear a 'firmly held belief' that isn't rooted in misinformation/lies.
I'm ok with their "firmly held beliefs".

If they "firmly believe" they have the right to refuse the vaccine - that's fine with me.

When they go on to suggest they have the right to mix with others without limitation. (n)


To carry the analogy further, the anti-vaxxers
Gary Cooper ran out of bullets. Chuck Connors never did.
 

daftandbarmy

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It's not pretty easy. Under what QR&O or CBI can someone be placed against thier will on LWOP?

Um... it's the military, right?

I've seen people subjected to much worse 'against their will'.

As a wise SNCO I worked with once opined: 'The Army is always a battle of wills... and you WILL always lose.' :)
 

Jarnhamar

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It's not pretty easy. Under what QR&O or CBI can someone be placed against thier will on LWOP? We have people credibility accused of murder and sexual assault who still were paid while the process played out. What legal basis will the CAF have to justify stopping someone's pay who worked in person safely through the pandemic with no vaccine, but magically now is unclean because they don't want it?

All things considered it seems like a hollow threat to make.

Just like firing thousands of health care providers when the health care system is so overburdened and short staffed they've had to call in the military.

Looks like the nurses et el in Quebec called the governments bluff and they were given another month to get vaccinated "or else".
 

Brad Sallows

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Small Pox, Polio, Measles, Mumps, Rubella

Childhood vaccinations. Decisions made by parents, not the individuals vaccinated. People keep dragging out comparisons that are invalid for a novel pandemic and novel vaccines (ones without decades of use history). Best to stick to probabilities: if your age > X, you are safer getting vaccinated (benefit > vaccine risk). If your age < X, you are safer without vaccination (benefit < vaccine risk). Figure out what X is. Also recognize natural immunity. Also take a deep breath and just accept verbal yes/no along with risk of liars.

If denial of employment extends far enough, the problem of supporting people denied employment will arise. Allowing them to starve is out of the question. Creating a loophole ("vaccine conscientious objector") for people who don't want to work is unwise. Best to head it off now and relax the panicked totalitarian response and muddle through.
 

brihard

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Um... it's the military, right?

I've seen people subjected to much worse 'against their will'.

As a wise SNCO I worked with once opined: 'The Army is always a battle of wills... and you WILL always lose.' :)
There still needs to be a sound legal basis for anything like that- members have the right to procedural fairness, even in the army. Fast path to a succesful grievance and/or judicial review if proper administrative law principles are not adhered to. If you’re going to stop someone’s pay, better have a written policy stemming from some legal authority to do so.
 

mariomike

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Childhood vaccinations. Decisions made by parents, not the individuals vaccinated.
I remember standing in a long line of other kids.
I recently asked my mother about the "decision" part. She said nobody asked her opinion.
Fast path to a succesful grievance and/or judicial review if proper administrative law principles are not adhered to.
What does your union say?

My former union is on board with unpaid suspension effective 1 Nov. and termination effective 13 Dec..

Who wants to be cooped up in a station, or vehicle, 40 hours a week with an unvaccinated partner?

We went through the same thing when annual influenza vaccination was mandated.

The union would send a rep to hold your hand while they terminatated you. But, that was it.

There was rumour of a mass resignation, and rescind. But, that never happened.

Article 39 – RIGHT TO RESCIND RESIGNATION 39.01 An employee who resigns shall have the right to rescind their resignation, provided that they notify their immediate supervisor in writing, with a copy to the Division Head concerned, within five (5) working days of the date on which they tendered their resignation. Upon receipt of such written notification by the employee’s supervisor, the employee shall be reinstated to their former position upon the commencement of their next scheduled shift. It is understood that such time off shall be without pay, but with seniority and benefits.
 

brihard

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I remember standing in a long line of other kids.
I asked my mother about the "decision" part. She said nobody asked her.

What does your union say?

My former union is on board with unpaid suspension effective 1 Nov. and termination effective 13 Nov.

Who wants to be cooped up in a station, or vehicle, 40 hours a week with an unvaccinated partner?

We went through the same thing when annual influenza vaccination was mandated.

The union would send a rep to hold your hand while they terminatated you. But, that was it.
Not gonna get into union advice to members on open means, however my understanding is that multiple federal unions have received legal advice that, at its core, a vaccine requirement for employment is legal. The devil is in the details- how policy is actually implemented, and what authorities are relied upon for things like stopping pay, LWOP, etc.
 

ModlrMike

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Protective immunization has already been ruled a Bone fide operational requirement (BFOR). If one chooses not to obtain the required immunization, then one becomes non-deployable, and potentially non-employable, due to a circumstance wholly within the member's control.

Some may quote R v Kipling, which spoke to the constitutionality of s.126 of the NDA, but that case never reached its conclusion AFIK. It will likely take some time for there to be sufficient jurisprudence on the question of vaccine mandates vs s7 of the Charter before the CF has better ground to stand on.
 

mariomike

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Not gonna get into union advice to members on open means, however my understanding is that multiple federal unions have received legal advice that, at its core, a vaccine requirement for employment is legal.
I've been unemployed for well over a dozen years.
But, that is what i remember from personal past experience with mandated influenza vaccinations.

Thank-you for your insight.
 

QV

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Childhood vaccinations. Decisions made by parents, not the individuals vaccinated. People keep dragging out comparisons that are invalid for a novel pandemic and novel vaccines (ones without decades of use history). Best to stick to probabilities: if your age > X, you are safer getting vaccinated (benefit > vaccine risk). If your age < X, you are safer without vaccination (benefit < vaccine risk). Figure out what X is. Also recognize natural immunity. Also take a deep breath and just accept verbal yes/no along with risk of liars.

If denial of employment extends far enough, the problem of supporting people denied employment will arise. Allowing them to starve is out of the question. Creating a loophole ("vaccine conscientious objector") for people who don't want to work is unwise. Best to head it off now and relax the panicked totalitarian response and muddle through.

Everything in this post is being irrationally ignored by the folks making the decisions.
 

hattrick72

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In reality it’s pretty easy. LWOP while being processed release under 5f. We were discussing the way forward on this today.

There is zero sympathy for those who wish to remain unvaccinated in the CAF - no grievance authority will support any redress attempts.
Provided the CoC acts is a way that is procedurally fair. I have no doubt that is the intent, but it only takes a couple dinosaurs to ruin it for the holy.
 
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Happy Guy

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Yes, we have rights and responsibilities. It is too early to say what is right...all the cards are not on the table. Our responses may be different, each thinking they are being responsible.
You remind me of someone who decides what information is a "fact" and others as "misinformation" to suit their purposes or someone who goes against the flow just to be noticed. As many people here have stated everyone here has rights and freedoms as defined in the Charter of Rights, but we also have an obligation to try and harmoniously live in a civilized society and this means not harming our neighbours. Please do not mention being a victim like the Jews in Nazi Germany these are not the same circumstances. I have visited the Holocaust Museum and it frankly makes me angry when some anti-vaxers compare themselves on the same level as the Jewish victims.

By the way, many people here are well informed and not "sheep" who blindly follow the crowd. I read the information concerning the vaccines and was well aware of the risks when I got vaccinated. I've read about mRNA technology and this have been around since the early 1970s. I hope that you will overcome your fears about the COVID 19 vaccines. Understanding mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines

Any unvaccinated person who deliberately walks into a close and confined space while unmasked is risking spreading COVID 19 to the unsuspecting people. Please do yourself and my family a favour, distance yourself from anyone, wash your hands, wear a mask in public and go get tested on a daily basis if you don't want to get vaccinated.

Cheers
 
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