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CDN/US Covid-related political discussion

brihard

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I'll call you on that. While it is true that the "salary" increase was limited to 1% they have broken things down into time in service so that the increases are annual and they are large. The following is taken from a web site called salary explorer.
An Elementary School Teacher with less than two years of experience makes approximately 57,000 CAD per year.

While someone with an experience level between two and five years is expected to earn 76,500 CAD per year, 34% more than someone with less than two year's experience.

Moving forward, an experience level between five and ten years lands a salary of 99,400 CAD per year, 30% more than someone with two to five years of experience.

So you see, teachers are being well compensated. Now lets get back to giving our nurses a decent salary.
Yeah, you’re talking about pay levels commensurate with experience. Same as the military, same as policing, same as the federal public service- same as lots of jobs. And all of those pay levels, in the cases of teachers and nurses, are held at 1% annual increase or, functionally, 3.4% cut in purchasing power. Three years of that with this kind of inflation and at each pay step they’ll have suffered an effective 10% cut.

In any cases, I only mentioned teachers briefly to correct your false claim that they got an 8% raise. Back to nurses, I’m glad we’re agreed that they don’t deserve to see their pay effectively cut, especially in the course of a pandemic.
 

PuckChaser

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Nurses are reaping what they sowed. Ardent union support for Liberal governments at every level has elected a Federal government that has let inflation run rampant. Of course they losing money to inflation, everyone else is. No employer predicts inflation and offers future raises to cover it, that's unrealistic and idiotic. An 8 year RN in Ontario makes 1800 a week before tax and overtime if they work 40 hours. Pretty sure 95k a year is pretty fair compensation.
 

brihard

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Nurses are reaping what they sowed. Ardent union support for Liberal governments at every level has elected a Federal government that has let inflation run rampant. Of course they losing money to inflation, everyone else is. No employer predicts inflation and offers future raises to cover it, that's unrealistic and idiotic. An 8 year RN in Ontario makes 1800 a week before tax and overtime if they work 40 hours. Pretty sure 95k a year is pretty fair compensation.
No; collective agreement negotiations typically lag two to three years behind, and pay increases for a given year are negotiated retroactively with inflation already known. Bill 124 has legislated a cap for certain years that would supersede collective bargaining rights.

That’s not to say there may not be a succesful legal challenge, but at present many (but not all) of the public sector unions will be prohibited from negotiating increases above 1%. That means they have cut nurses’ pay in a pandemic. Personally I’m very not ok with that.
 

RangerRay

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Not to mention many hospitals/health authorities/provinces not hiring full time nurses so they don’t have to pay benefits. After working 4 hours at one hospital, they work 4 at another, then 4 at a LTC facility, becoming an unwitting vector for the virus. Just so they don’t have to pay for full-time benefits. 🤦‍♂️
 

PuckChaser

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That’s not to say there may not be a succesful legal challenge, but at present many (but not all) of the public sector unions will be prohibited from negotiating increases above 1%. That means they have cut nurses’ pay in a pandemic. Personally I’m very not ok with that.
You're being disingenuous. Bill 124 received Royal Assent in Nov 2019, well before any pandemic and is for all public sector workers. Cut pay during pandemic is a great talking point but not the truth. I think its just as despicable to use the pandemic to squeeze more out of your employer when public sector workers in Ontario are already well compensated. I'm not crying any tears for RNs, Teachers, etc after they pulled generous wage increases for years as payment for thier support of the McGuinty/Wynne Liberals that caused the systemic gutting of our Healthcare capacity that set the stage for garbage performance during COVID19.
 

Brad Sallows

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3.4% cut in purchasing power

Here, you've hit upon the measure that matters. Keep in mind that during fiscal crunch periods (eg. recessions) when unions settle for 0, 0, and 2 (or even 0, 0, and 0), some people get (-5, 0, and 0). Everyone is getting the same pay adjustment due to inflation. Not everyone is getting a 1% raise. Some will be getting pay cuts (or layoffs) if their employers are trying to cut costs to hold prices down.
 

Remius

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So far no plan for Ontario to follow Quebec’s lead on health tax for the unvaccinated

BC as well



So far the other provinces don’t seem to keen on a health tax on the unvaccinated.
 

brihard

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You're being disingenuous. Bill 124 received Royal Assent in Nov 2019, well before any pandemic and is for all public sector workers. Cut pay during pandemic is a great talking point but not the truth. I think its just as despicable to use the pandemic to squeeze more out of your employer when public sector workers in Ontario are already well compensated. I'm not crying any tears for RNs, Teachers, etc after they pulled generous wage increases for years as payment for thier support of the McGuinty/Wynne Liberals that caused the systemic gutting of our Healthcare capacity that set the stage for garbage performance during COVID19.
At any point they could have assessed that the situation has changed, and repealed bad legislation. They chose not to. Inflation has been apparent for a while now. Nurses’ working conditions have also gotten distinctly shiftier. When the provincial government has time to make that assessment, and make that conscious choice, they then own the result.

Nurses have suddenly become a very valuable and in demand commodity in the labour market. Like any commodity, they’re worth what someone will pay for them. As a province, we have decided not to pay what they’re worth, and some are leaving when we already cannot get enough. Hospitals are having to fill in with more costly temps and travel nurses.

Sure, nurses are fairly well paid. They damn well should be for what they do. But they’re also in demand, and in short supply. Pretending we don’t have a problem doesn’t allow us to solve it.
 

YZT580

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You're being disingenuous. Bill 124 received Royal Assent in Nov 2019, well before any pandemic and is for all public sector workers. Cut pay during pandemic is a great talking point but not the truth. I think its just as despicable to use the pandemic to squeeze more out of your employer when public sector workers in Ontario are already well compensated. I'm not crying any tears for RNs, Teachers, etc after they pulled generous wage increases for years as payment for thier support of the McGuinty/Wynne Liberals that caused the systemic gutting of our Healthcare capacity that set the stage for garbage performance during COVID19.
This is where the teachers surged into the lead. Wynne bought them with a deal that provided those annual increments so they didn't have to be concerned with p.s. caps or legislation. The nurses didn't get such a deal. Ranger Ray spelled out a good part of the problem above and it comes back on the local hospital boards: the use of part-time and casual workers to avoid paying benefits. They have had two years to correct this and yet there are boards that haven't added a single person year to their budgets. When challenged on it they point to the province and the cap rather than doing something about it.
 

Czech_pivo

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Nurses are reaping what they sowed. Ardent union support for Liberal governments at every level has elected a Federal government that has let inflation run rampant. Of course they losing money to inflation, everyone else is. No employer predicts inflation and offers future raises to cover it, that's unrealistic and idiotic. An 8 year RN in Ontario makes 1800 a week before tax and overtime if they work 40 hours. Pretty sure 95k a year is pretty fair compensation.
Why make 95k CAD/yr before OT when a RN living in a border region can make:

Registered Nurse salary in Detroit, MI​

How much does a Registered Nurse make in Detroit, MI?​

Average base salary​

Data source tooltip for average base salary.
$93,911
Per hourPer dayPer weekPer monthPer year
14%
above national average

Most common benefits​

Overtime
$12,489per year
Others
Referral Program

94K USD/yr = 117.7K CAD/yr plus another 12.5K USD in OT if they want it, for a grand total of 133k CAD/yr. Understand now why healthcare in the border regions is brutal.

And most weekly hours are based at 36hrs/week before OT kicks in, 4hrs/week less than in Ontario.
 

PuckChaser

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But then you have to live in Detroit.

We've also figured out what the issue with single payer healthcare is... there's no financial incentive for Hospitals to hire and pay the best. Good nurse gets paid the same as a bad nurse, Hospital CEO with a trash facility gets paid the same as a well-run, state of the art facility. We put tons of money in bloated government administration of our hospital system, which has clearly hit rock bottom during an incredibly manageable pandemic. Imagine if COVID was actually as bad as the initial reports? We'd have collapsed during the Delta wave.
 

Czech_pivo

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But then you have to live in Detroit.

We've also figured out what the issue with single payer healthcare is... there's no financial incentive for Hospitals to hire and pay the best. Good nurse gets paid the same as a bad nurse, Hospital CEO with a trash facility gets paid the same as a well-run, state of the art facility. We put tons of money in bloated government administration of our hospital system, which has clearly hit rock bottom during an incredibly manageable pandemic. Imagine if COVID was actually as bad as the initial reports? We'd have collapsed during the Delta wave.
Ahh no - virtually none of these Nurses/Doctors live in Detroit. They live in Windsor or Niagara Falls ON or SS Marie On or Sarnia.

Few, very few of them want to live in the US. Why would they when you can take your salary in USD, flip it to CDN and reap the extra min 25% in salary.
 

lenaitch

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But then you have to live in Detroit.

We've also figured out what the issue with single payer healthcare is... there's no financial incentive for Hospitals to hire and pay the best. Good nurse gets paid the same as a bad nurse, Hospital CEO with a trash facility gets paid the same as a well-run, state of the art facility. We put tons of money in bloated government administration of our hospital system, which has clearly hit rock bottom during an incredibly manageable pandemic. Imagine if COVID was actually as bad as the initial reports? We'd have collapsed during the Delta wave.
Do we? Canadian hospital back offices can be smaller because they are generally billing a single payer; whereas US hospitals have to deal with myriad of insurance companies, employers and patients directly.

 

PuckChaser

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And which system has completely collapsed so that we have to lock down large swaths of the country to support it? Clearly our system doesn't work, and the US system isn't perfect either.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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And which system has completely collapsed so that we have to lock down large swaths of the country to support it? Clearly our system doesn't work, and the US system isn't perfect either.
Horsecock......we just don't think the poor should just "shut up and die" in their houses.

And for frigs sakes, ITS NOT BEING LOCKED DOWN, my huge inconvenience right now is not being able to play hockey for 2 more weeks.
 

Czech_pivo

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And which system has completely collapsed so that we have to lock down large swaths of the country to support it? Clearly our system doesn't work, and the US system isn't perfect either.
Look, there is a reason why major US cities have much more robust ICU/critical care units than us - it’s major crime. They have so much more serious crime, resulting in more trauma to individuals and as a result they have much better coverage in this area than we do.
 

PuckChaser

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Horsecock......we just don't think the poor should just "shut up and die" in their houses.

And for frigs sakes, ITS NOT BEING LOCKED DOWN, my huge inconvenience right now is not being able to play hockey for 2 more weeks.
Yep, that's you. If you relied on a wage from working at a restaurant, hockey arena or fitness facility you'd probably have a pretty different tune. It's easy to claim the lockdowns don't affect you when the pay cheque shows up every 2 weeks still.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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Yep, that's you. If you relied on a wage from working at a restaurant, hockey arena or fitness facility you'd probably have a pretty different tune. It's easy to claim the lockdowns don't affect you when the pay cheque shows up every 2 weeks still.
Well there isn't a factory or LTC in Guelph that you can't walk into right now and start tomorrow.....
 

Blackadder1916

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Look, there is a reason why major US cities have much more robust ICU/critical care units than us - it’s major crime. They have so much more serious crime, resulting in more trauma to individuals and as a result they have much better coverage in this area than we do.

Probably not, though I wouldn't rule it out as a minor factor (likely a very minor factor). I'll probably have to go look and dig out some of the research, but from casual conversations I've had with American health managers over the years the greater number of ICU beds compared to acute care beds often comes down as much to business decisions as clinical need. A hospital can charge more for a day in an ICU than for a standard bed resulting in ICUs being major income producers.

I had been looking at some journal articles a few months ago about hospital/ICU income/expense ratios and similar subjects that probably would have given me a chubby back in the day when this kind of crap was my job but I can't seem to readily find them again. There's probably also some utilization rates by service/DRGs available on-line but most of the results that come up first these days deal primarily with Covid.

A couple of pre-Covid articles that touch on my line of thought but shouldn't be taken as definitive.

 
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