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CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18

Good2Golf

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Old EO Tech said:
Or could it be that the ASM and the CCA actually chat once in a while and the ASM is enforcing the command direction of the CCA? ....hmmm

If that’s the case, then it’s LGen Eyre giving the direction, or the ASM clearly and explicitly supporting the CCA’s direction.  Not a personalized ASM’s thing.  Did CCA give such direction?
 

Old EO Tech

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Good2Golf said:
If that’s the case, then it’s LGen Eyre giving the direction, or the ASM clearly and explicitly supporting the CCA’s direction.  Not a personalized ASM’s thing.

I don't think anyone said the ASM was off in left field making decisions all on his own, just because we don't see the inner workings of a senior command team doesn't mean its not happening.  In my experience, CWO at any level of command are given the delegated authority by their CO/Comd to enforce dress policy, it's still the commanders policy and direction, but he expects the CWO to deliver it, and any ramifications of people not following the Comd direction
 

Good2Golf

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Old EO Tech said:
I don't think anyone said the ASM was off in left field making decisions all on his own, just because we don't see the inner workings of a senior command team doesn't mean its not happening.  In my experience, CWO at any level of command are given the delegated authority by their CO/Comd to enforce dress policy, it's still the commanders policy and direction, but he expects the CWO to deliver it, and any ramifications of people not following the Comd direction

Pretending that some CWOs don’t take liberties with they partship of the Command Team Relationship is naive. It happens and/or has happened from unit right up to CAF to varying degrees. JH notes he thought it was the ASM or someone at similar level.  JH didn’t not say “the ASM noted that CCA is frustrated that CA members are not respecting the requirements of BEARDFORGEN, and may have to take additional action if required...” 
 

Old EO Tech

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Good2Golf said:
Pretending that some CWOs don’t take liberties with they partship of the Command Team Relationship is naive. It happens and/or has happened from unit right up to CAF to varying degrees. JH notes he thought it was the ASM or someone at similar level.  JH didn’t not say “the ASM noted that CCA is frustrated that CA members are not respecting the requirements of BEARDFORGEN, and may have to take additional action if required...”

Well I'm not going to speculate on personalities that may or may not have done that in the past.  But neither does a CWO have to say he's speaking for his Comd, for that to be a fact. I would find it considerably condescending to ask the ASM if he talked with his boss before issuing this direction...and I'm positive that if you did that it would not be without consequences. 
 

Good2Golf

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Old EO Tech said:
Well I'm not going to speculate on personalities that may or may not have done that in the past.  But neither does a CWO have to say he's speaking for his Comd, for that to be a fact. I would find it considerably condescending to ask the ASM if he talked with his boss before issuing this direction...and I'm positive that if you did that it would not be without consequences.

If I had not heard from CCA of such concerns yet heard the ASM speaking in first person about rescinding beard wearing rights, I would have no issue whatsoever discretely having a discussion with the ASM about it.  If the/an ASM felt such engagement to be condescending, and that he attempted to influence ‘consequences’ that would only serve to reinforce my earlier point of some CWOs in the past taking liberties with the Command Team relationship.  I do not accept your innuendo that one should not (if even appropriately and discretely) query the nature of such commentary by members of senior leadership.  I was fortunate to have had the pleasure and privilege of having the support of one of the finest pan-service CWO/RSMs in the business, but I wouldn’t, for a second, professionally tolerate bravado and inappropriate transfer of command (vice coordination) prerogative by a member, professional as they may otherwise be, that has not been charged with and entrusted to executing command authority.

Regards
G2G
 

Eye In The Sky

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Old EO Tech said:
I don't think anyone said the ASM was off in left field making decisions all on his own, just because we don't see the inner workings of a senior command team doesn't mean its not happening.  In my experience, CWO at any level of command are given the delegated authority by their CO/Comd to enforce dress policy, it's still the commanders policy and direction, but he expects the CWO to deliver it, and any ramifications of people not following the Comd direction

First point...every NCM above the rank of Pte/Avr/OS is delegated authority to enforce dress and all other reg's and policy via the QR & Os.  It's an expectation of duty; the issue is many are NOT doing it these days.


Maybe it is time to refer to the BEARDFORGEN....(caps are from a cut/paste from Pg 1 of this thread, not mine).  Can the CCA take away what the CDS authorizes? 

3.EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE WEARING OF A BEARD IS AUTHORIZED FOR ALL CAF MEMBERS UPON ATTAINMENT OF THEIR OPERATIONALLY FUNCTIONAL POINT (OFP) OR HAVING COMPLETED DEVELOPMENTAL PERIOD ONE, WHICHEVER COMES LAST. HOWEVER, COMMANDERS OF COMMANDS, TASK FORCE COMMANDERS AND COMMANDING OFFICERS RETAIN THE RIGHT TO ORDER RESTRICTIONS ON THE WEARING OF A BEARD TO MEET SAFETY AND OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENTS.  THIS INCLUDES RESTRICTIONS PERTAINING TO OPERATIONS AND TRAINING WHERE, IN A CHEMICAL BIOLOGICAL RADIOLOGICAL NUCLEAR (CBRN) ENVIRONMENT OR CBRN TRAINING ENVIRONMENT, A BEARD CAN BE ORDERED TO BE REMOVED TO ENSURE FORCE PROTECTION ON OPERATIONS OR TRAINING. SUCH RESTRICTIONS WILL BE AS TEMPORARY AS FEASIBLE (E.G. AS LONG AS THE ENTIRE DURATION OF AN OPERATIONAL TOUR IN A CBRN ENVIRONMENT OR AS SHORT AS A SINGLE TRAINING DAY FOR CBRN OPERATIONS). WHERE CURRENT CAF EQUIPMENT CAPABILITIES CANNOT ENSURE FORCE PROTECTION OR THE ABILITY TO EFFECTIVELY EMPLOY SAFETY SYSTEMS WHILE WEARING A BEARD, BEARD RESTRICTIONS FOR MEMBERS USING THAT EQUIPMENT FOR OPERATIONAL OR SAFETY REASONS MAY BE PUT IN PLACE BY A COMMANDING OFFICER

Seems like the real solution is to deal with the offenders, which is actually within their (anyone's) left/right of arcs.  Lazy leadership = punishing everyone.
 

TCM621

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I like my beard, all 0.25 cms of it but they need to be policed. I saw a Capt, with a scraggly beard, long boarding through the base the other day and my first thought was we were being invaded by hipsters. For 90% of the terrible beards I see, 5 minutes of grooming twice a week would make all the difference.

 

kev994

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Eye In The Sky said:
First point...every NCM above the rank of Pte/Avr/OS is delegated authority to enforce dress and all other reg's and policy via the QR & Os.  It's an expectation of duty; the issue is many are NOT doing it these days.


Maybe it is time to refer to the BEARDFORGEN....(caps are from a cut/paste from Pg 1 of this thread, not mine).  Can the CCA take away what the CDS authorizes? 

3.EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE WEARING OF A BEARD IS AUTHORIZED FOR ALL CAF MEMBERS UPON ATTAINMENT OF THEIR OPERATIONALLY FUNCTIONAL POINT (OFP) OR HAVING COMPLETED DEVELOPMENTAL PERIOD ONE, WHICHEVER COMES LAST. HOWEVER, COMMANDERS OF COMMANDS, TASK FORCE COMMANDERS AND COMMANDING OFFICERS RETAIN THE RIGHT TO ORDER RESTRICTIONS ON THE WEARING OF A BEARD TO MEET SAFETY AND OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENTS.  THIS INCLUDES RESTRICTIONS PERTAINING TO OPERATIONS AND TRAINING WHERE, IN A CHEMICAL BIOLOGICAL RADIOLOGICAL NUCLEAR (CBRN) ENVIRONMENT OR CBRN TRAINING ENVIRONMENT, A BEARD CAN BE ORDERED TO BE REMOVED TO ENSURE FORCE PROTECTION ON OPERATIONS OR TRAINING. SUCH RESTRICTIONS WILL BE AS TEMPORARY AS FEASIBLE (E.G. AS LONG AS THE ENTIRE DURATION OF AN OPERATIONAL TOUR IN A CBRN ENVIRONMENT OR AS SHORT AS A SINGLE TRAINING DAY FOR CBRN OPERATIONS). WHERE CURRENT CAF EQUIPMENT CAPABILITIES CANNOT ENSURE FORCE PROTECTION OR THE ABILITY TO EFFECTIVELY EMPLOY SAFETY SYSTEMS WHILE WEARING A BEARD, BEARD RESTRICTIONS FOR MEMBERS USING THAT EQUIPMENT FOR OPERATIONAL OR SAFETY REASONS MAY BE PUT IN PLACE BY A COMMANDING OFFICER

Seems like the real solution is to deal with the offenders, which is actually within their (anyone's) left/right of arcs.  Lazy leadership = punishing everyone.
I’m not sure what you are getting at, it says those pers can order you to shave it for safety reasons and only so long as that safety concern persists, it doesn’t say anything about deciding they don’t like the policy.
 

CountDC

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If you have not questioned him about the beard then how do you know there isn't a reason for it? Some of those long shaggy beards are policed and exist for a reason, I have known 2 that were approved for valid reasons.  One was an MWO and the other was a Capt, I was present when the RSM addressed the Capt about his beard.

It is right that everyone should be aware and questioning when something doesn't seem right.  Understand that some may not be comfortable with addressing the matter when the person is a higher rank but that shouldn't stop them from bringing it to the attention of others that could address it.  A sideways method that can be used is a question - Sir, is that beard the new standard?
 

Eye In The Sky

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kev994 said:
I’m not sure what you are getting at, it says those pers can order you to shave it for safety reasons and only so long as that safety concern persists, it doesn’t say anything about deciding they don’t like the policy.

That is my point.  :nod:
 

Eye In The Sky

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CountDC said:
If you have not questioned him about the beard then how do you know there isn't a reason for it? Some of those long shaggy beards are policed and exist for a reason, I have known 2 that were approved for valid reasons.  One was an MWO and the other was a Capt, I was present when the RSM addressed the Capt about his beard.

IMO...that is the Adjt's (or equiv) job....

 

Humphrey Bogart

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Eye In The Sky said:
IMO...that is the Adjt's (or equiv) job....

Seems there are many folks who don't know what or who their arcs are these days.
 

Eye In The Sky

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Agreed.

CountDC said:
I have known 2 that were approved for valid reasons.  One was an MWO and the other was a Capt, I was present when the RSM addressed the Capt about his beard.

And then there is this aspect...I'm not seeing a 'necessary for the preservation of discipline' aspect, personally. 

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/queens-regulations-orders/vol-1-administration/ch-19-conduct-discipline.html#cha-019-13
 
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Can a practicing muslim keep his beard in the caf ? and even through training ? will a person be forced to shave it ?
 

Eye In The Sky

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The current policy is the person would have to shave it until they're trained in the military occupation.  There is no religious accommodations for Muslims regarding beards.

Having said that, I know of one member who is awaiting training (ie - not trained yet) who had an accommodation approved for a religious reason (practicing a Norse faith, or something along that line).  The mbr requested permission to keep his beard, it was reviewed and approved by the CofC.  It has to be reviewed periodically (12 months IIRC) to ensure mbr is still practicing that faith/religion.
 

Jumper194

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If anyone has DWAN access, go to the ACMIS page for the dress committee. It has some excellent backgrounders on many Army dress decisions, but more specifically a glorious briefing note in favour of allowing beards. The MWO that prepared it is an absolute wordsmith.
Thank you. That was my Briefing note, it was originally sent in in 2015, and 9 months later it came back stating the font was wrong and had to be re-submitted. Took almost 2 years before it would be accepted.
 

Sgt_Bloggins

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Reviving an old article but as the CANFORGEN implies, you must reach OFP to be able to have a beard. What about OT's we start seeing through the system now, does this still apply to them, and are they still allowed to grow a beard since they reached OFP in their previous trade. Or now that they have OT'd they must shave until they pass their new trade's DP 1?

- I do notice previous mentions of this from 2019, I'm just wondering if anyone has a recent experience. Imagine it's really left up to the staff/school on where to draw the line?
 

Kilted

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Reviving an old article but as the CANFORGEN implies, you must reach OFP to be able to have a beard. What about OT's we start seeing through the system now, does this still apply to them, and are they still allowed to grow a beard since they reached OFP in their previous trade. Or now that they have OT'd they must shave until they pass their new trade's DP 1?

- I do notice previous mentions of this from 2019, I'm just wondering if anyone has a recent experience. Imagine it's really left up to the staff/school on where to draw the line?
The rank after the transfer might affect their decision as well. The higher rank you are, the more likely you will be fine.
 

Eye In The Sky

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What about OT's we start seeing through the system now, does this still apply to them, and are they still allowed to grow a beard since they reached OFP in their previous trade. Or now that they have OT'd they must shave until they pass their new trade's DP 1?
I can only speak to my experience when I was a BTL NCO at a Sqn (over a year ago now since I handed over the duty), but OTs give up their OFP status and revert to 'QL0' in their new trade (this is, or was at least, clearly indicated on their VOT Offer and Instructions messages).

I had 20+ BTL (PAT) NCMs, mixed direct entry and VOTs - the only one who was permitted a beard was the one with a religious accommodation that was auth by the CofC. Officer PATs were under the same rules, however.

The relaxation to the policy where I was at the time was with 'Wings grade' members who were awaiting training for prolong periods; my local CofC approved a "permitted, if initial occ trg is completed successfully" and mbr's were simply waiting to get on to and complete OTU.

But this was a year ago and one specific location so....
 

Eye In The Sky

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The rank after the transfer might affect their decision as well. The higher rank you are, the more likely you will be fine.

Unit, as well. A Capt who VOTs might have a better chance of making it under the limbo bar than a NCO who relinquished a higher rank (most if not all VOT NCMs revert to Cpl/S2). Then they end up working/reporting to a BTL NCO or WO/PO1 who knows and possibly cares about the difference....
 
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