Author Topic: Pick the right trade at the begining!  (Read 19311 times)

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Offline navy-nesop

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Pick the right trade at the begining!
« on: December 26, 2007, 17:51:18 »
Good day to all,

I wanted to take a few minutes to address a growing concern about new people coming in.  I was at the NESOP training facility since April this year.  I have just rejoined after 10 years of absence from the Military.

I have noticed that many people that are coming from BMQ, are applying for occupational transfer as soon as they get to the school.  We get these guys that are complaining about the Navy and our trade.  They say that they want to re-muster to other trades.  They also say the reason they are here is that at the recruiting center they told them that if they pick a red trade they would get in fast and then after they can ask for occupational transfer.

Let me get some things strait here.  If you don't want a certain trade, don't sign on the bottom line.  Occupational transfer takes a long time and on top of that, if you picked a red trade, they don't want you to quit because they need you.  Your life will be miserable for months if not years.
 
Some of us are happy with their choice, so if you complain and ***** about your trade, you will just upset the others.  The worst I think is those who failled their Army trades and are sent to us.  If you are a hard sea trade but want to be sent to Afghanistan, you made the wrong choice.

So make the right choice for your new trade.  If you are not sure about one trade, ask people on this forum.  They will tell you more than just the brochure you get at recruiting.

all stations, this is navy-nesop, over!
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Offline Dimsum

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Re: Pick the right trade at the begining!
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2007, 18:50:57 »
Plus, not all trades allow people to VOT immediately *cough* Aircrew ones *cough*  ;)  Any recruiters available or willing to shed some light on the "pick a red trade and ask for VOT later" policy?
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Pick the right trade at the begining!
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2007, 18:59:24 »
It's not a policy.  Officially, they are not supposed to make that statement.

Unfortunately, there are recruiters who want to make the target; there are also people coming in the door who hear "you can ask for a remuster" and interpret as "you're entitled to a remuster".

I believe the CF needs "hidden shoppers" to wander through the CFRCs and report back on what happens - it works in retail to improve service and identify deficiencies.
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Offline HFXCrow

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Re: Pick the right trade at the begining!
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2007, 19:15:34 »
Excellent post by Navy-Nesop!

The Navy is not the army or as sexy as the JTF2.

The NESOP trade is far from exciting!
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Offline navy-nesop

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Re: Pick the right trade at the begining!
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2007, 19:34:07 »
You are right HFXCrow,

"The NESOP trade is far from exciting!",

Except when I got to say " A system missile away, ETA to target 10 sec... (10 sec later) A system target kill." in '96 onboard HMCS Winnipeg.

But it's true, if you are expecting action all the time that would be the wrong trade.  But I love it ...
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Offline Albedo

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Re: Pick the right trade at the begining!
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2007, 19:37:00 »
This advice seems like a no-brainer, but some still don't see it.

I wasn't offered the "deal" to sign for a red trade and then attempt transfer upon completion of BMQ, but I did talk to a few people during recruiting who thought they were. I can't say if the staff told them it was possible or if they thought they were beating the system and speeding up their recruiting themselves.

I had SigOp (red) and LCIS as my 1 and 2 choices, and a CWO friend gave me some solid advice about those trades, their experience, and which they thought I would prefer long term. I asked if it would be hard to transfer out of SigOp into LCIS if I found it wasn't what I expected. It was explained to me how hard it would be to transfer out of a red trade into something that is non red.

I was also told off the record that occasionally some staff will bend rules or give half truths (such as you can re-muster but it could take a few years) to get bodies in.

I thought long term and decided I wanted LCIS more than SigOp and decided it would be worthwhile to (possibly) wait an extra 3 months to sign for that trade versus starting now and maybe being unhappy for some time while trying to transfer.

Things to think about. 

Offline HFXCrow

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Re: Pick the right trade at the begining!
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2007, 19:48:31 »
I am just sick and tired of OS reporting to the ship and putting in their remuster~! And the  famous quote: "They told me I could put my remuster in once I got to ship" A. Who in the **** is "they" and B. See below

Here is your bucket and deck rags and report to # 2 Heads. The heads needs some attention.

Take the trade you want in the CFRC process and wait if you have too.
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Offline navy-nesop

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Re: Pick the right trade at the begining!
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2007, 20:52:05 »
I never tough I would say that one day,

I can't wait to do cleaning stations on a ship again!  WOW I said it!  Anyway...

We need more people now and we have the budget to get them.  The only thing is the machine is not rigged for it it seems.  What happened with "Do what you are told and shut up."  I can't tell you how many times I had to say during my QL3 "This is the Military folks, not democracy."  I believe the message has gotten lost from trying to be politically correct.  The Military is different than any other jobs out there.  It can't function properly if you try to run it like a normal business or any other government entity.

I understand the recruitment problem, we have to attract more people.  I think the Forces would benefit from some major change in training policies.  For example in the Navy.  You could have the recruits after BMQ sent to NETP for the basic sailor training.  So your first qualification is sailor.  Then you could be sent on a ship for seamanship duties in general.  You could do a package that would send you in different department for a few weeks at a time.  Then you could pick the trade you really want.

That could take care of a few administrative problems.  Lets face it, is a newlie QL3 qualified sailor really that usefull in the trade.  It takes time to learn and be efficient.  On top of that it could probably keep the new troops happy.  After all, you join the navy to go on a ship, not to stay in the training system for months.

I'm sure you more experienced sailors would agree to this, and it probably could work in other areas in the Military too.

this is navy-nesop, over
"If you're going through hell, keep going. "
Winston Churchill

Jacqueline

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Re: Pick the right trade at the begining!
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2007, 21:43:24 »
ThX for the post Navy. I had a plan to join the reserves as a Med Tech, but I'm thinking of Reg. Force (a different trade) . Well now I'll  save the recruiting office any unnecessary hassle.

Offline Meridian

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Re: Pick the right trade at the begining!
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2007, 21:48:43 »

I believe the CF needs "hidden shoppers" to wander through the CFRCs and report back on what happens - it works in retail to improve service and identify deficiencies.


They do, all the CF needs is to read the posts on Army.ca! 
I agree that some sort of secret shopper type program might wake some people up, but I have a sneaking suspicion that that information may fall on less than perfect-hearing ears.

Offline HFXCrow

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Re: Pick the right trade at the begining!
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2007, 22:08:27 »
More Reg force in the recruiting centers and less reserves! ( I am ex-reservist so hold the comments)

I went with my sister to the CFRC in Ottawa as my sister was applying to be a MARS Officer and some Cameron Highlander Sgt was tellling her about life at sea.

I nearly fellout of my chair.
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Offline --NES--

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Re: Pick the right trade at the begining!
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2007, 22:20:12 »
More Reg force in the recruiting centers and less reserves! ( I am ex-reservist so hold the comments)

I went with my sister to the CFRC in Ottawa as my sister was applying to be a MARS Officer and some Cameron Highlander Sgt was tellling her about life at sea.

I nearly fellout of my chair.


You have to consider a few things about that though;

- although he is a Reserve Sgt, He will have the most up to date information about the trades available.  (besides, he may have a Navy background... there are a few Sgts in my res unit who are ex navy)

- If you are basing all judgment of exp on type of uniform, consider that not all Air force personnel fly, not all Navy personnel go to sea and not all army personnel... uh.. i don't know... drive tanks.  Would it have been more settling to have this information delivered by a Navy member, who may have never even seen a ship, just because of their uniform?

- Along with my first point, and NOT A KNOCK ON RECRUITING PERSONNEL; sometimes being posted to a recruiting centre for a long time takes the relevance out of any personal experiences the recruiter is telling you about... this is why recruiters are told to pass on information which is given to them by the system and not go by what they did when they were active in their parent trade... Otherwise, it would be like a Kosovo vet telling a soldier headed to Afghanistan what things will be like; granted, it's good knowledge, it's just not up to date... thus the system steps in.

As much as it may have floored you to hear a reservist talk about the Navy while out of element and branch, he most likely had the most up to date info about the trade and could provide the best source of information when it came to the specifics. 

Just my $0.02
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Pick the right trade at the begining!
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2007, 22:29:21 »
More Reg force in the recruiting centers and less reserves! ( I am ex-reservist so hold the comments)

I went with my sister to the CFRC in Ottawa as my sister was applying to be a MARS Officer and some Cameron Highlander Sgt was tellling her about life at sea.

I nearly fellout of my chair.

I don't understand your point.  Are you saying every CFRC needs to have on staff a representative from every element and trade to ensure that every response is based on personal experience?

Offline Proud Dad

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Re: Pick the right trade at the begining!
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2007, 22:38:53 »
There is another angle to look at this subject from. Even if a recruit has done proper research about the type of trade that would interest them, its often the rumours they hear at BMQ that make them doubt that decision.

One of my sons had made a firm decision for which trade to apply for, and was accepted based on that. Several times during BMQ he heard from various Instructors that He had chosen a "Dead Trade" and should have taken "_______". I wonder how often this happens with the Recruits you all are referring to here.

He was also told at BMQ that the CF is clamoring for all the recruits they can get, so its hard to turn someone down when they do want to transfer. I believe he will stick with his choice based on all that appealed to him originally, but there were moments of doubt.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 22:41:30 by Proud Dad »

Offline navy-nesop

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Re: Pick the right trade at the begining!
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2007, 23:16:41 »
What if we add a generic trade for every element.

I'll talk for the navy, because, well, I'am a sailor.  Let's say after BMQ, you where sent on your NETP (Naval Environment Trainning Program), then you become a generic sailor.  You are then sent to a sea going unit to perfect what you have learned on your course.  You could get to spend a few weeks with every trade to see what they do and how life is for these people.

After a few months, you then get to aplly for a specific trade.  Takes care of the personnel awaiting trainning (PAT), because you can still stay onboard while waiting for an opening for trainning.  It helps the unit to have a full crew.  More people would be sent to their right place, thus less administrative issues for seasikness and remuster.  It might even keep the new recruits more interested since they get to do something right away.

I'm sure this could also be applied for the Army and the Air Force.  What do you think?

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Offline Dimsum

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Re: Pick the right trade at the begining!
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2007, 23:52:58 »
What if we add a generic trade for every element.

I'm not exactly sure how one could do this for the Air Force.  Having untrained people hanging around the techs doesn't really sound like a good idea when they're busy, and where else could you put them?  If you detail them off to a section, aren't you just creating another PAT-like organization (albeit for a much shorter timeframe)? 

Now this has got me wondering; if we're having "problems" with PAT and related with a force of about 60,000....what did they do when we were a much larger force!  All stories of PAT/PRETC that I've heard start out with "it grew to this size", so how did people get put to work prior to the CF downsizing? 
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline navy-nesop

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Re: Pick the right trade at the begining!
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2007, 00:17:11 »
For the Navy, it would work really good.

On ship, there is a lot of non related trade work to be done.  Cleaning, painting, storing ship and all sorts of different jobs that do not require long trainning.  On top of that our ships are gething older already, so it means more work.  We actually sent PAT to sea before they even get their NETP.

The Ottawa sailed with 70 people missing on her last trip.  70 out of 225 is big hole.  But I agree, if I where a pilote, I don't think I would like to have a PAT near my plane....!  LOL

Probably the Army could also handle  a generic trade or PAT.  Can anyone confirm?
"If you're going through hell, keep going. "
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Offline HFXCrow

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Re: Pick the right trade at the begining!
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2007, 08:59:27 »
I don't understand your point.  Are you saying every CFRC needs to have on staff a representative from every element and trade to ensure that every response is based on personal experience?


Actually, yes I am. At least a regular force element representative not a recruiting center full of Class B reservists.
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Offline CallOfDuty

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Re: Pick the right trade at the begining!
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2007, 10:28:01 »
  Navy-nesop, I really like your ideas about sending people to a ship for a few months before picking their new trade.
   When I did my NETP, it was my first opportunity to get on a ship, and alot of the other fellas too.  Let me tell you , that some of the people I was with were not liking what they saw.........the tight sleeping quarters.....the claustraphobic aspect of it........
  Some of the guys were already saying " hell no, am I gonna live in this big hunk of metal for months at a time!"
          In my opinion, when a person decides to select a navy occupation, they should be, at a bare minimum, be given a tour of a ship......spend a day there, asking questions to the different trades...check out the navy museum...watch some videos......then let the enrollee decide whether they think they'll like it or not.
  I suppose that would cost too much money to do that, but it would save time and resources down the road.
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Pick the right trade at the begining!
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2007, 10:45:07 »
Actually, yes I am. At least a regular force element representative not a recruiting center full of Class B reservists.

So you would have been ok with a Navy DEU MP, as the "regular force element representative" explaining the roles and duties of a MARS officer to your sister?

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Pick the right trade at the begining!
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2007, 10:50:12 »
Actually, yes I am. At least a regular force element representative not a recruiting center full of Class B reservists.

While I see what you are saying, I can't say I agree.  As an example, the "element rep" could be for the Army, a Veh Tech Sgt, who would then be giving someone who wanted to go Artillery the where-for's of being a gunner?   ???  Or lets say Johny Q walks into the CFRC, which has a Sig O as its Army Element Officer Rep, and wants the goods on what the life of a Tank Tp Ldr is like.  Can a Sig O give them the BTDT perspective?  

Now, if you take a second to think about this...why are there so many Class B folks in the CFRCs in the first place?  Is it because the Reg Force is alittle strained with....operations, and training system (ie instructor) shortages?

 ;)

Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline HFXCrow

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Re: Pick the right trade at the begining!
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2007, 12:01:09 »
I will gladly volunteer for a CFRC Shoreposting!

My trade could use some more shore billets.

My opinion is that reserves should look after reserve recruiting and and vice versa.  More regular force are needed (should be mandated) in the CFRC's especially Navy and Airforce.



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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Pick the right trade at the begining!
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2007, 12:06:06 »
I know some PRes people who were at CFRCs for 7+ years...the Reg Frce people relied on them for their...'corporate knowledge'  ;)

if there are more Reg Frce people requried, where should they come from if lots of the MOCs are red?  The trng system?  Op's?

 ???
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Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

aesop081

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Re: Pick the right trade at the begining!
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2007, 12:09:27 »
Well, i know its a catch-22, but the solution to our shortages starts (but not limited to) the CFRCs so........

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Pick the right trade at the begining!
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2007, 12:14:07 »
Well, i know its a catch-22, but the solution to our shortages starts (but not limited to) the CFRCs so........

Regardless of what we do, we end up robbing Peter to pay Paul  :o
Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.