Author Topic: Canada asks for Chinook design changes; military expert worry about delay  (Read 107977 times)

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Offline geo

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Funny thing that, when we came out of Korea and through the 60s the Canadian Military was a fairly well equipped force that was able to "close with and kill the ennemy".

Between 1968 and 2001 we were the "Military " that everyone liked and that was more of a UN Constabulary.  Being that UN Peacekeeper that everyone liked, we didn't need all that nasty equipment a serious military needs to  "close with and kill the ennemy".

Well, we're back to being a Military force (working on it at least).  Our politicians more or less understand that the peacekeeper mystique was just that..... a mystique.  The best constabulary / peacekeeping force is one that, IF REQUIRED, can  "close with and kill the ennemy".

Lest we forget!
« Last Edit: April 01, 2008, 10:34:56 by geo »
Chimo!

Offline beenthere

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The Chinook has been around for over 40 years and will still be around 50 years from now. The same airframes that served in Vietnam have been recycled through the Boeing plant numerous times and upgraded from A to B to C to D models and lots of new airframes have joined the fleet as it expanded. For the most part the only thing that has remained the same is the look.  It's the same fuselage design with tandem 3 bladed rotors and externally mounted engines. The fuselage has beefed up structural members because it used to be just a very weak aluminum box that developed wrinkles on the outside and cracks on the inside. The rotor heads and blades have changed over the years because the original design was far from perfect. Over the years the engines have been replaced with more powerful ones but they're still housed in external pods like the old ones were.
But not lately. If I could do it all over again I would  change one thing.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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I have a question. Being an infatry type with a keen interest in airmobile ops, is the use of carbon fibre and compoiste materials being incorporated into the Chinook and other choppers?
I really beleive in technology helping a soldier do his/her job.
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline beenthere

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http://www.flightglobal.com:80/articles/2008/04/01/222555/new-chinook-models-extend-heavylift-helicopters-life.html  Here ya go. Everything you ever want to know about Chinooks. Building, rebuilding, upgrades and even upgrading rebuilds. 8)
But not lately. If I could do it all over again I would  change one thing.

Offline FoverF

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I have a question. Being an infatry type with a keen interest in airmobile ops, is the use of carbon fibre and compoiste materials being incorporated into the Chinook and other choppers?
I really beleive in technology helping a soldier do his/her job.

Well, I know the rotor blades on Chinooks are mostly composite, but other than that, I think that most of the airframe is still aluminum. I'm sure (hoping) someone will correct me if I'm wrong here.

Helicopters tend to be built like a very thin-walled egg, with extremely thin sheet metal, and not a whole lot of excess structural strength. Because the structures are already designed to be so light, replacing them with carbon fibre doesn't really get you the benefit it would in other applications. There are also new aluminum alloys coming out all the time, that allow the improvement of conventional metal structures, without having to change your entire production process.

But as in all fields of aviation, every new chopper model coming off the line has more composites than the chopper that preceded it.
Plan B is just to keep on givin' er

Offline beenthere

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Is duct tape a composite?  I've seen a lot of it used. ;D
But not lately. If I could do it all over again I would  change one thing.

Offline geo

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Is duct tape a composite?  I've seen a lot of it used. ;D

It only becomes a composite once you get 2 or 3 layers thick >:D
Chimo!

Offline Spencer100

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I think the NH-90 uses a fair amount of composite material in it.   Also the "new" chinooks use some. 

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5hlHnUE9Q5hfUQFZlApGdESkRKwfQ
Ottawa asks Boeing for proposal for 16 new Chinook helicopters
21 hours ago

OTTAWA — The federal government issued a request for proposals Monday to Boeing for 16 military helicopters.

Public Works Minister Michael Fortier says the helicopters are meant to re-equip the Canadian Forces over the longer term - not to fill Canada's immediate need for helicopters in Afghanistan.

But Defence Minister Peter MacKay says the helicopter purchase is all about getting them into the war-ravaged country as quickly as possible.

A blue-ribbon panel led by former Liberal deputy prime minister John Manley concluded helicopters were a requirement for extending Canada's mission in Afghanistan.

The Conservative government announced in June 2006 it was going to buy 16 heavy-lift helicopters and within weeks said Boeing was the company best-suited to meet the requirements.

The government says it expects to award the helicopter contract this fall.

Offline geo

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Oy vey!!!  They announce the need and identify the sole possible supplier to fill the need in June 2006 and it takes pert near 24 months to issue a request for proposal from same said supplier..... AMAAZING!!!
Chimo!

Online MarkOttawa

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A post at The Torch (see Update for some interesting stuff from Flight International on "design changes"):

"CH-47 Chinook - Government one step closer to re-equipping Canadian Forces"
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2008/04/ch-47-chinook-government-one-step.html

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Online MarkOttawa

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Looks like the aircraft for Afstan will be
CH-47Ds under CHAPS program ($20 million each cost):
http://www.sfu.ca/casr/ft-chinook1.htm
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/on-the-verge-canadas-47b-program-for-mediumheavy-transport-helicopters-02390/

Afghanistan choppers to cost "a couple of hundred million dollars," sources
http://www.news1130.com/news/national/article.jsp?content=n040989A

Quote
Despite weeks of frantic activity and negotiation, Canada's Defence Department can only guess how much it will cost to fulfil the Manley report conditions that extend Canada's Afghan mission until 2011.

Defence sources say it is expected to cost "a couple of hundred million dollars" to supply six Canadian-owned battlefield helicopters to troops in Kandahar in a project that is over and above the Conservative government's promised $4.7 billion purchase of 16 CH-47 Chinooks.

A firm price tag has yet to be calculated because National Defence is waiting for the Pentagon to deliver a formal letter of offer in a government-to-government purchase, a defence source familiar with the file told The Canadian Press.

The helicopters destined for Kandahar will be [used but refurbished] "standard U.S. Army configuration" - or the 'D' model of the Chinook, which cost between $15 and $20 million per aircraft.

When logistics, spare parts and training are included, defence insiders conceded that the department currently has "no idea" how much obtaining the helicopters will cost...

Government officials had hinted the money would come out of the Tories' existing helicopter program, but that is not the case.

"This is in the Support to Afghanistan (budget) and not part of the (medium-lift helicopter) project," said the source, who spoke on the condition of not being named...

The planned purchase of heavy-lift helicopters was announced by the Conservatives almost two years and they very quickly identified Boeing's CH-47 Chinook as the aircraft they wanted.

There was mounting frustration within the Defence Department because the project has been stalled.

The air force has asked for the latest variant of the aircraft - the 'F' model - but also requested modifications in the aircraft that have pushed the delivery date off until the 2011-12 time frame...

The offer of six CH-47-D Chinooks, carved out of an order originally slated for the U.S. Army, was made verbally by Washington shortly before the independent panel made helicopter transport a condition for Canada remaining in Afghanistan.

Canadian pilots are already training on the Chinooks at Fort Ruker, Alabama, the U.S. Army's main aviation school. The aircraft mechanics are expected to be trained through Boeing.

"The plan is: We will deploy with four to six in February
[emphasis added]," said the source...

At that price the aircraft will clearly be bought through Boeing’s CHAPS (Cargo Helicopter Alternate Procurement Strategy) program. Will we then end up with 22 Chinooks in all? Not if there is an...

Quote
...ultimate ‘rebuild’ of the CF’s CHAPS ’D models into ’Fs. [from first link above]

Mark
Ottawa
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 10:38:31 by MarkOttawa »
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline geo

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Silly question really but, with all these new airframes coming on line.... CC117s and CH47s on order/delivered now and the CC130Js to be ordered shortly.... how are we doing with Mechanics, Aircrew & Pilots at this time?

Would seem to me that the new capacity is taking away trained personel from the aircraft we already have .... so how are we doing?
seems to me we're stealing from Peter to pay Paul
Chimo!

Offline dapaterson

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Exactly Geo.  New kit is fine - but without more people to operate it, what do we drop?  Or do we reduce the Army's growth to give the Air Force more pilots and maintainers...
Putting the *** in acerbic.

Offline Colin P

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Still rather have the new kit sitting in the hangers and in box waiting for people to get trained up, instead of having a bunch of highly trained people pretending to carry out inspections on pretend equipment. I spent to long on the gunline yelling "boom, rumble,rumble"

With aircraft, worse comes to worse, we can get 80% or so of the work down by contract, although I would rather see the Air Force have more of it's own techs.

Offline Ditch

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WRT manning.

CAS directive has made the following the AF's priority when it comes to which flying positions get filled first:

1) Training - need instructors to pump out more pilots

2) SAR - National Directive to be 100% manned

3) Operations

Our flying brethren at 436 Sqn are flying their collective tails off over "there".  Due to high operational task loads and min manning - a number of the trained experienced crews are bailing for the airliners.  No worries though - we don't have a manning shortage. :)
Per Ardua Ad Astra

Offline Spencer100

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Good News...with the economy going into the crapper and fuel prices going up...the private sector airlines are not going to be hiring in near future.  Three or four carriers have stopped flying in the last month.  ATA, Oasis, Skybus.   Although Canadian carriers are doing better it maybe a matter of time before they are going to be in trouble again.   An economic downturn maybe a good thing for manning numbers.  If I was an AF mechanic or pilot I would be thinking twice about the private sector*. 

* exemption flying oil company execs.   ;D

Offline beenthere

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WRT manning.

CAS directive has made the following the AF's priority when it comes to which flying positions get filled first:

1) Training - need instructors to pump out more pilots

2) SAR - National Directive to be 100% manned

3) Operations

Our flying brethren at 436 Sqn are flying their collective tails off over "there".  Due to high operational task loads and min manning - a number of the trained experienced crews are bailing for the airliners.  No worries though - we don't have a manning shortage. :)
Yup. It wasn't all that long ago that downsizing was all the buzz. I don't know if contracting maintenance for SAR helicopters was a part of downsizing but it helped to drain the pool of techs with helicopter experience and at the same time wiped out another field where techs can gain experience on helicopters.
When I heard the extent of the manning cut on 436 and the cut in taskings which is  where the new people gain experience I couldn't believe it. It actually looked like a situation that would result in the operation becoming becoming unsustainable.  New crewmembers get their best training and experience from high tempo operations and nothing can duplicate it.
But not lately. If I could do it all over again I would  change one thing.

Online MarkOttawa

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From the CDS at the Commons foreign affairs committee:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/04/10/hillier.html
Quote
...
Dewar[NDP MP] also pressed the general on the projected cost of supplying helicopters to transport soldiers in Kandahar, one of the key conditions laid out in the Manley report to extend Canada's Afghan mission until 2011.

Ottawa had threatened to withdraw its 2,500 soldiers from the Afghan mission unless NATO came up with 1,000 reinforcements and the Canadian Defence Department was able to acquire helicopters and unmanned spy planes.

The Canadian Press quoted sources inside the department as saying it is expected to cost "a couple of hundred million dollars" to supply six Canadian-owned battlefield helicopters to troops in Kandahar.

That comes over and above the Conservative government's promised $4.7-billion purchase of 16 CH-47 Chinooks.

Hillier replied that he could not define the cost of the helicopter contracts before the contracts are negotiated.

"I don't have the numbers," he said...

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline geo

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When you get down to it, the 6 CH47Ds will cost what they will cost..... If we are at war, budgets go pert much out the window & we start running up IOUs
Chimo!

Offline FoverF

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Nothing more expensive than losing a war.
Plan B is just to keep on givin' er

Offline SeaKingTacco

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It will cost us what it cost us.  Maybe, if we had not have short-sightedly sold the capability in the 90s in the first place, it would be cheaper and quicker.  But who am I to argue defence policy with the NDP....

Offline geo

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SeakingTacco
If you look at most NATO countries, they have all, at one time or another operated in a short sighted manner.
Look at the 100 Leo2s we've picked up from the Dutch (who yes did purchase our CH47s).
The Dutch are also trying to sell off some of the Pz2000 SPs they haven't even taken delivery of.... go figure.
The UK is being criticized almost every day for shortchanging their troops will all sorts of gear... go figure.

Thankfuly, under the current 9and last?) CDS, we appear to have begun getting our $h!t together .... but we still have a ways to go.
Chimo!

Offline beenthere

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But not lately. If I could do it all over again I would  change one thing.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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I suppose the line up to get a ride on those Chinooks extends from Winnipeg to Edmonton!
Question, looking to the future. Will a Chinook or two be available to train some PRes soldiers on how to get in it, out and ride in it?
I know that it will take some time.
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".