Author Topic: BGen Zeigler  (Read 4112 times)

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BGen Zeigler
« on: September 21, 2002, 14:43:00 »
Posted by Derrick Forsythe <forsythe@tic.ab.ca> on Tue, 16 Nov 1999 23:50:50 -0700
BGen Zeigler passed away over the weekend - for those of you unfamiliar with
his career he was the guy who fired a Whiskey Target in the Liri valley
Italy in ‘44 something like 663 guns rate 5.  He started as a boy soldier in
61 Bty in the 30‘s prior to heading off to europe in 39.
One of the few war heros we had left....
William Smith Ziegler
CBE, DSO, ED
B.Sc.Eng. Civil P Eng
Brigadier retired
W.S. Ziegler died in Edmonton on Sunday, the 14th of November after a brief
illness.  He was 88.
Born in Calgary in1911, the son of William George Ziegler and Elizabeth
Smith, Bill received his early schooling in that city.  He served in the
Second World War with the Canadian Army in Italy and Holland.  He was
promoted Brigadier at age 33 as Commander Royal Artillery, First Canadian
Infantry Division.  He was awarded the Distinguished Service Order in 1944
and was made a Commander of the British Empire in 1945.
Bill served with the British Foreign Office in occupied Germany, later
joining Canadian National Railways in Montreal where he rose to be
vice-president personnel.  Bill served as president of Inland Cement from
1956 until his retirement in 1973.
One of his proudest accomplishments was earning his B.Sc.Engineering Civil
in 1995, at age 84, from the University of Alberta.  His studies had been
interrupted in 1939 when he went to war.  Bill remembered his alma mater:
"They gave me an orderly mind," he said.
He served as director of Genstar Limited, as a governor of the Arctic
Institute of North America, as vice-chair of the Mid Canada Development
Corridor Corp., as honorary Colonel of the COTC at the University of
Alberta, was general chairman of the fourth and seventh conferences of the
National Northern Development Conference series.
He was a member of the advisory council of CESO, served as a member of the
Salvation Army Edmonton Advisory Board and the Duke of Edinburgh‘s Award in
Canada.  He helped with the founding of Junior Achievement in northern
Alberta and the Edmonton Community Chest, now the United Way.
Bill‘s wife Mildred Elizabeth Dean died in 1980, his grandson William in
1981.  He is survived by his son, Rod and daughter-in-law Gretchen.
Bill died well with the same courage, determination and single mindedness
of purpose that he showed throughout his life.  Ubique!
Funeral services will be held, Wednesday, 17 November at 1:30 p.m., St.
Andrews United Church, 9915-148 Street.  In lieu of flowers, donations to
the Salvation Army or the charity of choice.
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Re: BGen Zeigler
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2002, 14:43:00 »
Posted by Tom Downs <tdowns@connix.com> on Wed, 17 Nov 1999 08:15:29 -0500
OK, a question from an ignorant American.... what is a
Whiskey target?  Rate 5 is, I assume, a reference to a high rate of
fire.
     TIA
Tom Downs
Derrick Forsythe wrote:
>
> BGen Zeigler passed away over the weekend - for those of you unfamiliar with
> his career he was the guy who fired a Whiskey Target in the Liri valley
> Italy in ‘44 something like 663 guns rate 5.  He started as a boy soldier in
> 61 Bty in the 30‘s prior to heading off to europe in 39.
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Re: BGen Zeigler
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2002, 14:43:00 »
Posted by "Steve Kuervers" <skuervers@HOTMAIL.COM> on Wed, 17 Nov 1999 08:01:02 PST
A whiskey target is a ‘Corps‘ artillery target.  The Brigadier was the first
ever to fire such a target, on an Airfield in Italy during 1 Cdn Div‘s
campaign in Italy.
The Brigadier note that we don‘t call him a Brigadier General, a ‘new
speak‘ term, was quite aware up until the end.  At our last Mess function
that he attended, he corrected us on the number of guns:  626 of all
calibres.  No doubt he could have told us the number of each calibre if we
had asked.
Rate 5 would indicate five rounds of fire per minute.  With the exception of
the larger calibres which couldn‘t reload that fast, that would result in
close to 3000 rounds of artillery per minute!
A well, I will attend the funeral later today.  For those of you farther
away, please take time to reflect on another fallen soldier.
Ubique!
Steve Kuervers
aka
Troop Commander B Troop
61 Field Battery
20 Field Regiment,
Royal Canadian Artillery
>From: Tom Downs
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: Re: BGen Zeigler
>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 08:15:29 -0500
>
>OK, a question from an ignorant American.... what is a
>Whiskey target?  Rate 5 is, I assume, a reference to a high rate of
>fire.
>      TIA
>Tom Downs
>
>Derrick Forsythe wrote:
> >
> > BGen Zeigler passed away over the weekend - for those of you unfamiliar
>with
> > his career he was the guy who fired a Whiskey Target in the Liri valley
> > Italy in ‘44 something like 663 guns rate 5.  He started as a boy
>soldier in
> > 61 Bty in the 30‘s prior to heading off to europe in 39.
>
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Re: BGen Zeigler
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2002, 14:43:00 »
Posted by "Bradley Sallows" <Bradley_Sallows@ismbc.com> on Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:42:30 -0800
>A whiskey target is a ‘Corps‘ artillery target.
I think "Victor" is Corps "Whiskey" would presumably be all guns in range.
>Rate 5 would indicate five rounds of fire per minute.
IIRC, this was the nominal highest rate, but motivated 25-pdr crews could nearly
double that for short bursts.
What exactly was the nature of the target?
Brad Sallows
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Re: BGen Zeigler
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2002, 14:43:00 »
Posted by Ted Underhill <edward@IslandNet.com> on Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:40:34 -0800
I had the opportunity to meet him in Shilo in 1994.  A real gentleman, and
though he was quite frail even then, his mind and memory were very sharp.
He will be missed by all Gunners.
Ted Underhill
At 11:50 PM 11/16/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>BGen Zeigler passed away over the weekend - for those of you unfamiliar with
>his career he was the guy who fired a Whiskey Target in the Liri valley
>Italy in ‘44 something like 663 guns rate 5.  He started as a boy soldier in
>61 Bty in the 30‘s prior to heading off to europe in 39.
>
>One of the few war heros we had left....
>
>William Smith Ziegler
>CBE, DSO, ED
>B.Sc.Eng. Civil P Eng
>Brigadier retired
>
>W.S. Ziegler died in Edmonton on Sunday, the 14th of November after a brief
>illness.  He was 88.
>
>Born in Calgary in1911, the son of William George Ziegler and Elizabeth
>Smith, Bill received his early schooling in that city.  He served in the
>Second World War with the Canadian Army in Italy and Holland.  He was
>promoted Brigadier at age 33 as Commander Royal Artillery, First Canadian
>Infantry Division.  He was awarded the Distinguished Service Order in 1944
>and was made a Commander of the British Empire in 1945.
>
>Bill served with the British Foreign Office in occupied Germany, later
>joining Canadian National Railways in Montreal where he rose to be
>vice-president personnel.  Bill served as president of Inland Cement from
>1956 until his retirement in 1973.
>
>One of his proudest accomplishments was earning his B.Sc.Engineering Civil
>in 1995, at age 84, from the University of Alberta.  His studies had been
>interrupted in 1939 when he went to war.  Bill remembered his alma mater:
>"They gave me an orderly mind," he said.
>
>He served as director of Genstar Limited, as a governor of the Arctic
>Institute of North America, as vice-chair of the Mid Canada Development
>Corridor Corp., as honorary Colonel of the COTC at the University of
>Alberta, was general chairman of the fourth and seventh conferences of the
>National Northern Development Conference series.
>
>He was a member of the advisory council of CESO, served as a member of the
>Salvation Army Edmonton Advisory Board and the Duke of Edinburgh‘s Award in
>Canada.  He helped with the founding of Junior Achievement in northern
>Alberta and the Edmonton Community Chest, now the United Way.
>
>Bill‘s wife Mildred Elizabeth Dean died in 1980, his grandson William in
>1981.  He is survived by his son, Rod and daughter-in-law Gretchen.
>
>Bill died well with the same courage, determination and single mindedness
>of purpose that he showed throughout his life.  Ubique!
>
>Funeral services will be held, Wednesday, 17 November at 1:30 p.m., St.
>Andrews United Church, 9915-148 Street.  In lieu of flowers, donations to
>the Salvation Army or the charity of choice.
>
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>
>
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Re: BGen Zeigler
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2002, 14:43:00 »
Posted by "Grayson McCready" <noduff@HOTMAIL.COM> on Wed, 17 Nov 1999 16:20:54 PST
> >A whiskey target is a ‘Corps‘ artillery target.
>
>I think "Victor" is Corps "Whiskey" would presumably be all guns in range.
>
What made the engagment unique was that it was basically a "Fire Mission All
Available" meaning every gun in range of the target was was to engage. The
target was  a platoon of Tiger Tanks doing a counter attack of some sorts.  
When we asked about the effect I recall him making some remark to the effect
that  "they disappeared"
> >Rate 5 would indicate five rounds of fire per minute.
I‘m not sure here but I think in this context it was 5 Rds Fire For Effect
as opposed to Rate 5 for a specific duration of time. My WW2 Fire Discipline
is pretty rusty :_
I heard Brig Ziegler speak at an RCA Jr Officer Course and had the pleasure
of serving as his ADC at RV92.  I found the British Foreign Service portion
of his career the most interesting. It seems this was only given passing
mention in his obituary but he was the military governor of a German
State/province  which one eludes me for a number of years. How many
Canadians have governed a German state and done it well enough to return
many times in the years that followed and be warmly hosted by those that
were governed?
Grayson McCready
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Re: BGen Zeigler
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2002, 14:43:00 »
Posted by Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com> on Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:11:57 -0800
Derrick from Ian Edwards:
I knew Bill Zeigler "slightly". I joined Inland Cement in 1974 just
after he had left as President. He had a reputation there as a Holy
Terror and Zeigler stories, good and bad as found with all great men,
abound. A dusty cement plant circa 1970 especially, he had a flunky
each day go out to the parking lot and tarp his car immediately after
his arrival. Of course his arrival and departure were just like the
arrival of any general. I got to know him slightly - a humble market
planning analyst would never deign to consider that he could really know
the Big Man. It was Zeigler‘s personal will, on the Board of Genstar,
that got the firm to commit to building what would today be a several
billion dollar plant expansion in Edmonton, done without ANY real market
demand study - just his faith in the future of the Alberta economy. We
actually got along quite well once he found out I was in the PRes and
even better when he found out I had transferred to the Cadet List, as he
was a founder of the Army Cadet League. And he knew EXACTLY who I was!
I visited Zeigler three years ago when he was briefly a resident at the
Mewburn Veteran‘s Centre in Edmonton. In severe pain, and what I thought
to be on his death-bed, within two days of arrival he had forced the
admin. staff to advise him of the background of all the residents, and
when I mentioned that my father was a resident Dad was 2nd Div and
their paths had never crossed before the Mewburn Zeigler told me ALL
about him.
One correction to the published news reports. At the CNR Zeigler was
first and foremost put in charge of reorganizing the Newfoundland
division, straw-bossing many PEng‘s to get it done. He quickly whipped
that line into shape before posting to Montreal.
I wouldn‘t call him charismatic, but by God, you‘d have better done it
the best you could or all ****  was to pay. I didn‘t get to your funeral,
Big Bill, as I have an infectious cold, but I sure would have liked to
to pay tribute to the last of your type. And pity, that there are no
more like you!
Ian G. Edwards
Derrick Forsythe wrote:
>
> BGen Zeigler passed away over the weekend - for those of you unfamiliar with
> his career he was the guy who fired a Whiskey Target in the Liri valley
> Italy in ‘44 something like 663 guns rate 5.  He started as a boy soldier in
> 61 Bty in the 30‘s prior to heading off to europe in 39.
>
> One of the few war heros we had left....
>
> William Smith Ziegler
> CBE, DSO, ED
> B.Sc.Eng. Civil P Eng
> Brigadier retired
>
> W.S. Ziegler died in Edmonton on Sunday, the 14th of November after a brief
> illness.  He was 88.
>
> Born in Calgary in1911, the son of William George Ziegler and Elizabeth
> Smith, Bill received his early schooling in that city.  He served in the
> Second World War with the Canadian Army in Italy and Holland.  He was
> promoted Brigadier at age 33 as Commander Royal Artillery, First Canadian
> Infantry Division.  He was awarded the Distinguished Service Order in 1944
> and was made a Commander of the British Empire in 1945.
>
> Bill served with the British Foreign Office in occupied Germany, later
> joining Canadian National Railways in Montreal where he rose to be
> vice-president personnel.  Bill served as president of Inland Cement from
> 1956 until his retirement in 1973.
>
> One of his proudest accomplishments was earning his B.Sc.Engineering Civil
> in 1995, at age 84, from the University of Alberta.  His studies had been
> interrupted in 1939 when he went to war.  Bill remembered his alma mater:
> "They gave me an orderly mind," he said.
>
> He served as director of Genstar Limited, as a governor of the Arctic
> Institute of North America, as vice-chair of the Mid Canada Development
> Corridor Corp., as honorary Colonel of the COTC at the University of
> Alberta, was general chairman of the fourth and seventh conferences of the
> National Northern Development Conference series.
>
> He was a member of the advisory council of CESO, served as a member of the
> Salvation Army Edmonton Advisory Board and the Duke of Edinburgh‘s Award in
> Canada.  He helped with the founding of Junior Achievement in northern
> Alberta and the Edmonton Community Chest, now the United Way.
>
> Bill‘s wife Mildred Elizabeth Dean died in 1980, his grandson William in
> 1981.  He is survived by his son, Rod and daughter-in-law Gretchen.
>
> Bill died well with the same courage, determination and single mindedness
> of purpose that he showed throughout his life.  Ubique!
>
> Funeral services will be held, Wednesday, 17 November at 1:30 p.m., St.
> Andrews United Church, 9915-148 Street.  In lieu of flowers, donations to
> the Salvation Army or the charity of choice.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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Re: BGen Zeigler
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2002, 14:43:00 »
Posted by bryant morrison <bryantmorrison@yahoo.com> on Wed, 17 Nov 1999 20:52:19 -0800 (PST)
please take my e-mail address off list!!! Thank you!
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RE: BGen Zeigler
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2002, 14:43:00 »
Posted by Derrick Forsythe <Derrick.Forsythe@gov.ab.ca> on Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:09:22 -0700
You may be aware of this story Ian -  I heard it at the funeral and it‘s my
new favorite concerning the Brigadier.
Apparently the telephone poles running along the road into the Inland
Offices were crooked - Brig Ziegler one day decided someone should sort
those poles out and directed staff to go out and straighten the poles. --
and they did.
proof positive that old soldiers never die....
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Re: BGen Zeigler
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2002, 14:43:00 »
Posted by Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com> on Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:13:18 -0800
Thanks Derrick, yes I had forgotten that one, but I recall the story
too. Of course I was told that one just after Zeigler retired ? as
President and became a board member of Genstar. The first time I met him
I had been an employee for only a couple of weeks and was interviewed
and interrogated at length while the two of us stood at the urinals. So
I had to somewhat stand there and play with it while he finished
wouldn‘t do to leave him in mid-query, and the sink was some distance
from the urinals so I couldn‘t participate in the OGroup while
washing-up. Sorry if you can‘t understand anyone doing that, you‘d just
have to have met him. Most of my contribution to the converstaion was
"yes sir, no sir." And towards the end of it he said to me, "you know,
Edwards, I‘m still a very important man in this company." There was
never ANY doubt in my mind.
What a world in those days. Inland Cement started up a plant in Edmonton
from scratch and their only competitor was Canada Cement Lafarge who had
99 of the Alberta market and were lazy and arrogant. Within a year or
so, Inland stole 50 of the market. Wasn‘t very difficult. Unfortunately
for the marketplace two competitors soon both become lazy and arrogant,
a clasic example out of Microecon. 101. I would say the lazyness didn‘t
start until after Zeigler left the coy. It‘s a measure of a man that so
many people who knew him from his cement days would attend his funeral
so many years later.
A protege of his, named George Ross, had served with Zeigler in the NPAM
before the war and was hired by Zeigler as VP Sales when the coy began
in 1956. Ross became a Captain in the RCA in WW2 and later President of
Inland a few years after Zeigler. But not 1/4 the man. Ross has been
dead for about a decade.
Derrick Forsythe wrote:
>
> You may be aware of this story Ian -  I heard it at the funeral and it‘s my
> new favorite concerning the Brigadier.
>
> Apparently the telephone poles running along the road into the Inland
> Offices were crooked - Brig Ziegler one day decided someone should sort
> those poles out and directed staff to go out and straighten the poles. --
> and they did.
>
> proof positive that old soldiers never die....
>
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