Topic: How much do you pay for mess dues?

[ColdNorth]

Part of my in-clearing today was to check in to the JR-Ranks mess, so I got to see first hand what they are like (in Borden at least).  Exactly what I expected from the above posts, actually more than what I expected. 

[NFLD Sapper]

Paid $23 for the fol time period 15 Jul till 10 Sep at the WO and Sgt's mess Gagetown.....

[CDN Aviator]

The WO & Sgts mess here sucks....

The mess has money but because the dues can no longer be used to support the bar , the bar is going under. In response, the bar hours were cut , further reducing oportunities to make money. Bar prices are just about the same as in town and selection more limited.

The ascociate memers act like they own the place. 5 of us where standing in line one night at the bar and one of them decided to stand at the bar, 3 feet away from our line and says "line is over here". When we told him to pound salt, he just went around the corner to the other side of the bar and ended up served before us. On a rare night where i went, me and some other folks from the sqn sat at one table only to have some 70 year old army wife ***** at us about sitting at "their table"........we were all in uniform !! Theres is an RCAF association club close to the base but they dont want to go there...thats where all the retired officiers hang out.......

The TGIF menu sucks. Its usualy something like lasagna and garlic bread or beef on a bun. Either way, its comes from the mess hall kitchen downstairs. Its bad enough i have to pay $3 for each TGIF, let alone that its just mess hall food. Maybe if the menu wasnt designed for senior citizens, serving members would go and stay longer than food an one drink like the retired folks do.

Our mess doesnt even have a military feel to it. A few pictures of airplanes long retired and thats about it. Its like a realy old legion hall, without all the memorabilia in it.

We are supposed to get a new building with all 3 messes in it. Yet again, 3 seperate messes only. No common room like the one in Greenwood. We now have crews composed of personel belonging to all 3 messes and have no common place off base to get together for a drink, so everyone heads off base.

What do i get for my mess dues ? Coffee and sticky buns every 1st and 3rd Wednesday and the accompanying speech about not supporting the mess.

[Haggis]

Reserve Mess life in Ontario has just taken another kick in the junk from the McGuinty government.

Most Reserve JRs messes are made up of members in thier late teens and early 20's.  Effective 01 August 2010, any driver in Ontario who is under 22 years of age has to maintain a zero blood alcohol content.  Therefore, members under 22 who would previously stick around for one or two drinks after training/exercises are now going to be leaving right away.  This law was aimed at reducing impaired driving among city kids with reliable access to public transportation as an alternative to driving after a drink.  That's admirable.  But in true McGuinty style, he has once again ignored the effects of his actions on rural Ontario.  In small town Ontario this law further isolates the farm kid/Army Reservist who wants to share in sensible and mature esprit de corps with his fellow Canadian soldiers.

So, how well attended will your unit's Christmas dinner be this year?

[George Wallace]

Haggis

Your post and then the Oromocto Legion post seem to indicate a drastic change to the way Messes and Institutes may be run in the near future.

[Thucydides]

As for not having reasonable attendance after a parade night, this is a leadership thing. It's not uncommon for one of our Sr JRs (is that an oxymoron?) to be standing by the exit and questioning every troop why he is heading towards the exit rather than the mess. Our CSM has also marched us to and dismissed us in front of the mess on a semi-regular basis (3 or 4 times per training year) for the 5 years I've been in.

If you have to coerce your people to go to the mess with real or implied punishments for not going (and what implications would a new Pte. draw from being questioned by a senior member or having the CSM bring you right to the door?) then maybe there are other issues.

Try a little experiment. Don't have someone standing by the door for a 2 month period and see how many people chose to come on their own. If the attendance drops then that should tell you about the real level of support for the mess.

[N. McKay]

the dues can no longer be used to support the bar

What does that mean -- just that the dues can't subsidize the cost of drinks, or is there more to it?  (Are you required to make enough money from drinks to pay the bartender, e.g.?)

[dapaterson]

What does that mean -- just that the dues can't subsidize the cost of drinks, or is there more to it?  (Are you required to make enough money from drinks to pay the bartender, e.g.?)

Bars are supposed to be self-supporting - bar sales should cover the cost of goods sold plus bartender wages.

That's been on the books for years, just casually ignored in many places.

[Pusser]

Reserve Mess life in Ontario has just taken another kick in the junk from the McGuinty government.

Most Reserve JRs messes are made up of members in thier late teens and early 20's.  Effective 01 August 2010, any driver in Ontario who is under 22 years of age has to maintain a zero blood alcohol content.  Therefore, members under 22 who would previously stick around for one or two drinks after training/exercises are now going to be leaving right away.  This law was aimed at reducing impaired driving among city kids with reliable access to public transportation as an alternative to driving after a drink.  That's admirable.  But in true McGuinty style, he has once again ignored the effects of his actions on rural Ontario.  In small town Ontario this law further isolates the farm kid/Army Reservist who wants to share in sensible and mature esprit de corps with his fellow Canadian soldiers.

So, how well attended will your unit's Christmas dinner be this year?

Two things to consider here: 

1) Why do you have to drink alcohol to socialize with your colleagues?  And I am no teetotaller.  I always enjoy a good libation - or four.

2) Get imaginitive with transportation.  If there is no public transit, try carpooling witha designtated driver.  As for the Christmas party, do what many messes have been doing for years - give out taxi chits or rent a van and pay for a driver to drive folks home.  There are solutions to this problem.  It just takes the will (and OK, the money) to implement them.

[N. McKay]

Bars are supposed to be self-supporting - bar sales should cover the cost of goods sold plus bartender wages.

That's been on the books for years, just casually ignored in many places.

I see.  I can understand that there might be a reluctance to allow the sale of alcohol below its own purchase cost, but I'm surprised that the bartender's wages have to figure into it.  I wonder if any messes have been able to get around this by employing the bartender to do other things (or employing some other person such as the mess manager to tend the bar as a secondary function).  I know that, in some messes, a member is the "duty bartender".

[Pusser]

The WO & Sgts mess here sucks....

The mess has money but because the dues can no longer be used to support the bar , the bar is going under. In response, the bar hours were cut , further reducing oportunities to make money. Bar prices are just about the same as in town and selection more limited.

The ascociate memers act like they own the place. 5 of us where standing in line one night at the bar and one of them decided to stand at the bar, 3 feet away from our line and says "line is over here". When we told him to pound salt, he just went around the corner to the other side of the bar and ended up served before us. On a rare night where i went, me and some other folks from the sqn sat at one table only to have some 70 year old army wife ***** at us about sitting at "their table"........we were all in uniform !! Theres is an RCAF association club close to the base but they dont want to go there...thats where all the retired officiers hang out.......

The TGIF menu sucks. Its usualy something like lasagna and garlic bread or beef on a bun. Either way, its comes from the mess hall kitchen downstairs. Its bad enough i have to pay $3 for each TGIF, let alone that its just mess hall food. Maybe if the menu wasnt designed for senior citizens, serving members would go and stay longer than food an one drink like the retired folks do.

Our mess doesnt even have a military feel to it. A few pictures of airplanes long retired and thats about it. Its like a realy old legion hall, without all the memorabilia in it.

We are supposed to get a new building with all 3 messes in it. Yet again, 3 seperate messes only. No common room like the one in Greenwood. We now have crews composed of personel belonging to all 3 messes and have no common place off base to get together for a drink, so everyone heads off base.

What do i get for my mess dues ? Coffee and sticky buns every 1st and 3rd Wednesday and the accompanying speech about not supporting the mess.

I find the best solution to these problems is to get involved.  Joint the Entertainment Committee and volunteer to plan an event.  As for the Associates, make it clear to them that they are welcome to attend, but that it is your mess and the current regular membership will decide how things go.  Having said that, for many messes, it is the Associates that are keeping them afloat.  Therefore, it is necessary to proceed with caution

[Pusser]

Bars are supposed to be self-supporting - bar sales should cover the cost of goods sold plus bartender wages.

That's been on the books for years, just casually ignored in many places.

That's not quite true.  All the directives on the subject, were aimed at subsidized alcohol (i.e. we're not supposed to sell booze at less than cost).  There is nothing wrong with using other sources of revenue (e.g. mess dues) to pay mess staff.  Bartenders are mess staff and need not be restricted to tending bar.  They can do other things as well.

[dapaterson]

Yes, it isn't black and white, but writ large the bar should provide sufficient revenue to cover the cost of bar operations, which includes the cost of bar staff when operating the bar.

Reg F messes have a bit more flex (and a lot more public support) than Reserve messes.

[Haggis]

1) Why do you have to drink alcohol to socialize with your colleagues?

You don't.  My point was that soldiers under 22 who could previously do so are now prohibited.  They still have to drive home on training nights. and no Mess Committee is going to be able to afford a shuttle bus or taxi chits every training night.

2) It just takes the will (and OK, the money) to implement them.

Mess revenues are predicted to decrease in the face of this legislation making the provision of taxi chits and the like even more burdensome.  There are also prhibitions under Ontario law against doing things that wil encourage the over consumption of alcohol

[stealthylizard]

I've set foot once in the Junior Ranks Mess in Edmonton, and that was for our malaria briefings before deploying.

[Thucydides]

Reserve Mess life in Ontario has just taken another kick in the junk from the McGuinty government.

Most Reserve JRs messes are made up of members in thier late teens and early 20's.  Effective 01 August 2010, any driver in Ontario who is under 22 years of age has to maintain a zero blood alcohol content.  Therefore, members under 22 who would previously stick around for one or two drinks after training/exercises are now going to be leaving right away.  This law was aimed at reducing impaired driving among city kids with reliable access to public transportation as an alternative to driving after a drink.  That's admirable.  But in true McGuinty style, he has once again ignored the effects of his actions on rural Ontario.  In small town Ontario this law further isolates the farm kid/Army Reservist who wants to share in sensible and mature esprit de corps with his fellow Canadian soldiers.

So, how well attended will your unit's Christmas dinner be this year?

I would suspect the McGuinty government gave 0 thought to the military mess system when debating or writing this law; even without any pro or anti military bias, the numbers of military voters and their distribution across multiple rideings makes us effectively invisible. The numbers are so small I think in many rideings the military presence would not even show up as a statistical blip. being subsumed in the margin of error factor (+/- 3 to 4 % in most polls).

Responsible people will ensure that there are DD's, or alternative transport is laid on for mess functions that are equivalent to parades.

[Pusser]

You don't.  My point was that soldiers under 22 who could previously do so are now prohibited.  They still have to drive home on training nights. and no Mess Committee is going to be able to afford a shuttle bus or taxi chits every training night.

Mess revenues are predicted to decrease in the face of this legislation making the provision of taxi chits and the like even more burdensome.  There are also prhibitions under Ontario law against doing things that wil encourage the over consumption of alcohol

What is preventing the junior folks from going to the mess, having a non-alcoholic drink and then driving home?  They can still go to the mess.  They can still socialize.   The fact that they cannot have any alcohol in their system when driving is a red-herring.


Why will mess revenues decrease?  If people still go to the mess, there will still be revenue.  Only if messes don't do anything, will revenues decrease.  Frankly, alternative methods to get home, combined with more moderate consumption overall, is a good thing for everyone.  I remember the days when we thought you weren't a "real" man unless you drank until you could no  longer stand (or, in the case of some circles, until you flooded yourself).  They weren't pretty.

[Haggis]

What is preventing the junior folks from going to the mess, having a non-alcoholic drink and then driving home?  They can still go to the mess.  They can still socialize.   The fact that they cannot have any alcohol in their system when driving is a red-herring.

Clearly you didn't read my post.  They can still attend.  They can still have a non-alcoholic drink.  However they may choose not to.

Why will mess revenues decrease?

  I said "are predicted to decrease".  I could be wrong.

Frankly, alternative methods to get home, combined with more moderate consumption overall, is a good thing for everyone.

Agreed, in the great scheme, it's a good thing.  However, a privilege has been rescinded by the McGuinty government as this legislation does not demand "more moderate consumption".  It demands absitnence.  Thucydides rightfully observed that the second order effects on units in rural communities with dispersed memberships make it highly possible that mess participation could decline among the 19-22 year olds simply because they can no longer have a single drink. 

I remember the days when we thought you weren't a "real" man unless you drank until you could no longer stand (or, in the case of some circles, until you flooded yourself).

I remember them, too.  They are not completely gone, but the CF and society's view of alcohol consumption has made them far less frequent and visible these days.

[Pusser]

Clearly you didn't read my post.  They can still attend.  They can still have a non-alcoholic drink.  However they may choose not to.

I fully understood your post, I just think it is a separate issue.  If they choose not to attend for the sole reason that they can't have a beer, then there are other issues at hand (e.g. the mess is only fun if alcohol is involved?). 

Furthermore, what about all the members who are underage?  Do they not attend the mess either?  Notwithstanding the old "if you're old enough to fight for your country, then you're old enough to have a drink" argument, the fact is that CF policy and regulation dictates that Provincial liquor regulations* will be enforced in CF messes.  Do members in Ontario go to the mess and have a pop until they turn 19 and then stop because they have to drive themselves home? 

Interestingly enough, Nova Scotia liquor laws do allow CF members to drink wine and beer in their messes (i.e nowhere else), regardless of age.  I don't know if other provinces have similar rules.

[Blackadder1916]

Interestingly enough, Nova Scotia liquor laws do allow CF members to drink wine and beer in their messes (i.e nowhere else), regardless of age.  I don't know if other provinces have similar rules.

Do you have a reference for this or was it simply "accepted wisdom" at messes in Nova Scotia?

A review of the Liquor Control Act R.S.N.S. 1989, c. 260 and regulations made pursuant make no mention of such an exemption for the military, however there is some specific reference to the military in both the act and regulations.

In the act ( http://www.gov.ns.ca/legislature/legc/statutes/liquorc.htm ) there is a section which deals with a "special" license:

Special license for service personnel

61 (1) In this Section, "service personnel" means members of the armed forces of Canada, members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, members of the Coast Guard and members of the merchant marine of Canada.

(2) Notwithstanding any other provision of this Act, the Review Board may, in its absolute discretion, issue a special license to any person who keeps or operates premises for the benefit of service personnel or for any class or classes of service personnel authorizing the person himself or by his servant or agent to purchase beer from the Corporation and to sell by the glass or by the bottle the beer so purchased for consumption by service personnel on the premises kept or maintained by the licensee and specified in the license and the beer may be consumed on the premises by any such service personnel.
(added comment - Is it possible that some interpret this to mean underage drinkers in uniform can do so at such a licensed premises)

(3) The Review Board may attach to any license such terms, conditions or restrictions as it deems expedient and it may, from time to time, by notice in writing vary, add or omit any such terms, conditions or restrictions.

(4) The Review Board may cause to be made an inspection of any premises in respect of which a license has been issued or applied for and may inquire into all matters whatsoever in connection with the operation of the premises.

(5) The Review Board may, in its absolute discretion, at any time revoke or suspend any license so issued.

(6) The Governor in Council may make regulations prescribing
  (a) the form and manner of application for a special license;
  (b) the fee to be paid for such license;
  (c) the price or prices at which beer may be sold pursuant to such license;
  (d) the terms and conditions on which any such license may be issued and, without limiting the generality of the foregoing, prescribing that no license shall be granted unless the licensee has been entered on the register kept pursuant to the War Charities Act, 1939 (Canada). R.S., c. 260, s. 61; 2000, c. 28, s. 81; 2001, c. 4, s. 29.

However in the act it clearly states that:

Use of liquor by minor

89 (1) Liquor shall not be sold, supplied or given to or procured for or by any person under the age of nineteen years, except for medicinal purposes only as provided for by this Act.

(2) Every person who knowingly sells or supplies liquor to any person under the age of nineteen years or knowingly gives liquor to or procures liquor for any person under the age of nineteen years, except for medicinal purposes only as provided by this Act, shall be liable to the penalties mentioned in Section 104.

In the regulations ( http://www.gov.ns.ca/just/regulations/regs/lclicens.htm ), no specific mention is made as to a "special" license as mentioned in the Section 61quoted above.  There is specific reference to the type of license that can be provided to CF (or RCMP or CCG) establishments.

Classes of club license

10 The following are the 2 classes of club licenses:
  (a) a class A club license;
  (b) a class B club license.

Eligibility for club license
11 (1) A class A club license may be granted or renewed by the Review Board only to an applicant that is a club or association operated for objects other than monetary gain and that can demonstrate that the club or association has been active for at least 3 years before the date of their application.

(2) A class B club license may be granted or renewed by the Review Board only if the proposed licensed premises are under the direction of one of the following:
  (a) the Canadian Forces;
  (b) the Royal Canadian Mounted Police;
  (c) the Canadian Coast Guard.

And again in the regulations there is specific mention of sale to underage persons, without any exemption for military.

Minors in Licensed Premises
Duty to prevent liquor being sold to, served to or consumed by minors

44 (1) A licensee must ensure that a person who is under 19 years old is not sold, supplied or given liquor in their licensed premises.

(2) A licensee must ensure that a person who is under 19 years old does not consume liquor in their licensed premises.

At one time there might have been more leeway since there was once a type of license called a "military license", however

Transitional Provisions

Military licenses

86 A military license held by a person on the day before these regulations come into force is deemed to be a class B club license and remains valid until its expiry date.

The only relaxation of the rules for the military (save for some ease in applying for a license) would be this in the regulations.

Hours for selling and serving liquor

53 (1) Except as authorized by the Minister under Section 54 for a temporary extension, the maximum hours during which a permanent licensee may be authorized to sell or dispense liquor are as set out in the following table:

club license – class B         no maximum hours

[stealthylizard]

Just to be the wet towel, you shouldn't be driving even after 1 beer.  You can still be charged for it even if you pass a breathalyzer.

[tree hugger]

II know that, in some messes, a member is the "duty bartender".

Can a full and supposedly equal member of the mess be forced to act as bartender as a secondary duty?  My mess is going toward this option (a motion to switch to this was not raised or passed)....  They intend to have all A/SLt's and NCdt's take smart serve and take turns tending bar.  I remember this happening at an old unit I belonged to and I really didn't like it or think it was ok.  Besides the general dislike of the idea, I live close to 2 hrs from my unit so I would have to perform bartending duties until midnight then drive home - which would suck.

I figure that my mess dues are supposed to include the cost associated with paying a bartender.  The mess dues are lower for A/SLt's and NCdt's based on the majority are students.  As far as I'm concerned, I'd rather pay the higher fee and avoid being on the forced bartender list.

Has anyone else lived this?

[TimBit]

Unless the mess decides to reduce expenses by cutting a bartender or otherwise increase revenues. As for living far from the unit, I'm sure many will offer to take your turn as they understand driving home at 12:00 ain't fun. If no one else does, I'll fill in for ya.

[Grimaldus]

At our mess I decided we would pay one of the mess committee members to act as a bartender after work. She switches it with a civilian bartender.

[Captsapper]

Paying someone to work as a bartender after work is interesting, I am sure there are many students out there after a parade night would not mind working a couple extra hours as a bartender to pick up some extra cash.