Topic: Where is the Pharmacist on the pay scale? ( =regular Officer, or Physician? )

[bry4nfl]

According to the Forces website, there are four kinds of annual salaries for Officers, but which one ( except Pilot of course ) does the Pharmacist fall into?

Basic or physician/dentist grade?

Thanks in advance, any assistance in finding this would be greatly appreciated.

Reference:
http://www.forces.ca/media/_PDF/PayScalesOffReg_en.pdf

CFJSR Sig

[ModlrMike]

As they are neither Physicians nor Dentists by profession, they are therefore General Service Officers and paid as such.

[CountDC]

and just so you have the info:

Pharmacy Officer
SPECIAL COMMENTS
Recruiting allowances

Effective April 1, 2007, a pharmacist enrolling as a “Direct Entry Officer” may be offered a recruiting allowance of up to $50,000 depending on the difference between the number of existing trained military pharmacists and the desired number. The amount will be set out in the offer message, which the applicant will have 30 days to accept. In addition, pharmacists are enrolled with a rank of captain and an advantageous rate of pay. The applicant must agree to undertake 4 years of obligatory service.

Effective April 1, 2007, a pharmacy student enrolling under the “Regular Officer Training Plan” may be offered a recruiting allowance. The amount of the allowance varies according to the number of months of publicly subsidized education the student must undergo prior to becoming licensed as follows:

36 months or more : $10,000

more than 24 months but less than 36 months: $20,000

more than 12 months but less than 24 months: $30,000

less than 12 months: $40,000 (or $50,000 if there is a severe shortage of pharmacists at that point)

In addition, a candidate is provided with an officer cadet's rank and salary, and payment for tuition, instruments, supplies, and books. During the summer months, candidates undergo officer training. The applicant must agree to undertake 4 years of obligatory service.

[justmyalias]

As they are neither Physicians nor Dentists by profession, they are therefore General Service Officers and paid as such.

One would be quick to conclude that you don't care much for pharmacists?

Pretty blunt about it?

I was personally surprised when I first learned this myself.  I certainly would've expected them to be paid according to a similarly *special* pay grade.  After all...as a private sector employee, their salary is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than in the military.

The novelty of 'the thrill of being a military pharmacists' can only tie one over so long no?  Cash is king after all.

[dapaterson]

Entry level pharmacists are not making huge salaries.  From http://www.livingin-canada.com/salaries-for-pharmacists.html, the top wage for a pharmacist in Canada is around $108K - some make less than half that.  A Captain with 5 years in rank will make $82500, plus a significant benefits package - pension, full dental and medical, dependents medical and dental, professional memberships paid, ongoing professional development paid...

Overall, military payscales for pharmacists are competitive for the majority of pharmacists.

[CDN Aviator]

  Cash is king after all.

For you maybe. Others, maybe not.

[ModlrMike]

One would be quick to conclude that you don't care much for pharmacists?

One would be wrong!

Pretty blunt about it?

Simply a statement of fact. MOs and DOs have separate pay scales from GSOs.

[justmyalias]

... plus a significant benefits package - pension, full dental and medical, dependents medical and dental, professional memberships paid, ongoing professional development paid...
...

There's certainly no denying that the benefits are definately awesome.

[CountDC]

let's not forget that some get to be a Pharmacist because the military has paid for their education too.

[mariomike]

From http://www.livingin-canada.com/salaries-for-pharmacists.html,

If you type "Pharmacist" into the search engine, this may be helpful. These are 2008 salaries. The 2009 list should be out any day now. These are public sector employers only:
http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/publications/salarydisclosure/2009/

[dapaterson]

The listing of pers making over $100K in Ontario is not representative - since, after all, it includes only people making over $100K.

Given that a Major pharamcist in the CF could be making over $100K there is no issue here.

[Rocknroll]

I think pharmacists should be paid more. I suspect a major reason why the CF is finding it difficult to attract pharmacists is because they aren't paid comparably to their civilian counterparts. I also think the ROTP program is not very attractive to pharmacy students. How are you supposed to convince someone who is likely in their early 20s or older, has done at least a year or two in university -- and maybe has a degree -- to agree to an Officer Cadet salary? It's not really enough to live on in cities like Toronto or Vancouver, and they lose out on higher paying work in the summer due to CF obligations. I get that it's not all about the money, but it has to be at least a little about the money...look at the salaries MOTP/DOTP students enjoy.

[N. McKay]

Does ROTP not also cover the cost of living in residence?

[Occam]

I think pharmacists should be paid more. I suspect a major reason why the CF is finding it difficult to attract pharmacists is because they aren't paid comparably to their civilian counterparts. I also think the ROTP program is not very attractive to pharmacy students. How are you supposed to convince someone who is likely in their early 20s or older, has done at least a year or two in university -- and maybe has a degree -- to agree to an Officer Cadet salary? It's not really enough to live on in cities like Toronto or Vancouver, and they lose out on higher paying work in the summer due to CF obligations. I get that it's not all about the money, but it has to be at least a little about the money...look at the salaries MOTP/DOTP students enjoy.

If someone is coming in off the street straight out of high school into the ROTP pharmacy program, then you're getting a fully subsidized university education and OCdt salary - who else gives you that?

If someone already has a degree, but is choosing to not use it and enters ROTP under the pharmacy program, then the above also applies - why should you get a higher salary when you aren't working in your previous "chosen" field?

MOTP/DOTP students have already completed degree programs in the process of becoming medical students, and are using the knowledge and skills acquired during the undergraduate degree - therefore, they would deserve a higher salary.

[MedCorps]

Does ROTP not also cover the cost of living in residence?

Not if you are going to a civilian university.

MC 

[PD]

I already have a degree. I would like to consider becoming a pharmacist.  Currently I am an NCM.
How would I go about this.
a) Do I apply for a University before hand and get accepted?
b) Would I just request through CoC to apply?

[ballz]

Not if you are going to a civilian university.

MC

Not if you are going to RMC either. If you go to RMC you pay for R&Q.

I think pharmacists should be paid more. I suspect a major reason why the CF is finding it difficult to attract pharmacists is because they aren't paid comparably to their civilian counterparts. I also think the ROTP program is not very attractive to pharmacy students. How are you supposed to convince someone who is likely in their early 20s or older, has done at least a year or two in university -- and maybe has a degree -- to agree to an Officer Cadet salary? It's not really enough to live on in cities like Toronto or Vancouver, and they lose out on higher paying work in the summer due to CF obligations. I get that it's not all about the money, but it has to be at least a little about the money...look at the salaries MOTP/DOTP students enjoy.

Biased much?

You think people with "a year or two in university" are being ripped off getting paid 20k or more a year, plus tuition/books/supplies (which can easily be another 10k a year)? And if they live in Toronto/Vancouver they enjoy ~10-12k a year PLD as well... You think someone with "a year or two in university" can make substantially more than that on the civie side?

Even many degrees, as some unfortunate arts and business students find out, will not get you 40k a year starting out. So, even if they have a degree already, they still might not be making more in the civilian world, plus they'd actually have to work as opposed to just going to school.

Pharmacists Pharmacist students aren't that special. They're being offered one generous signing bonus more than most GSOs already. You're right the frig outta 'er if you think they should be getting the same deals as Medical Os.

[Occam]

I already have a degree. I would like to consider becoming a pharmacist.  Currently I am an NCM.
How would I go about this.
a) Do I apply for a University before hand and get accepted?
b) Would I just request through CoC to apply?

Neither.

Look around for "UTPNCM".

[medicineman]

I think pharmacists should be paid more. I suspect a major reason why the CF is finding it difficult to attract pharmacists is because they aren't paid comparably to their civilian counterparts.

I liken stuff like that to people that think MO's don't make that much money compared to their civilian counterparts - if you're a pharmacist or GDMO in the military, your salary is yours - you have no overhead to pay like rent and salary for staff, etc.  Gross pay might not work out, but they tend to net an awful lot more.

And BTW, anyone going to school would kill to have everything paid for AND make a salary at the same time AND be debt free at the end of it all - again, more money in their pockets.  Give your head a shake.

MM

[dapaterson]

Entry-level pharmacy jobs in the private sector are late hours and low pay - you're the one working the desirable midnight to 8am shift for barely above minimum wage.

A military pharmacist at age 40 will likely be a mid-ranking major, pulling in over 100K income, plus pension, plus a benefits package.  On deployments overseas, additional allowances are paid, plus there's the possiblity that your pay (or a portion of it) will be tax free.

The military also pays for your licensing and practice insurance; pays for your ongoing training; offers other professional development opportunities such as paid studies with a masters in health management or an MBA.


You are correct - the pay for a military pharmacist isn't competitive with the private sector.  It's head and shoulders above.

[justmyalias]

One would be quick to conclude that you don't care much for pharmacists?

Pretty blunt about it?

I was personally surprised when I first learned this myself.  I certainly would've expected them to be paid according to a similarly *special* pay grade.  After all...as a private sector employee, their salary is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than in the military.

The novelty of 'the thrill of being a military pharmacists' can only tie one over so long no?  Cash is king after all.

I can't believe someone reported this post.

I'm on a dozen-odd forums., post about a thousand times more there than on here, and this is the one I get dinged on, lol.  Go Figure.

[mariomike]

For reference, if interested.
Public Sector Salary Disclosure for 2010 : Hospitals and Boards of Public Health : pharmacist
http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/publications/salarydisclosure/2011/hospit11.pdf

It only shows those who made the Sunshine List. Your results may vary.

[justmyalias]

I can't believe someone reported this post.

I'm on a dozen-odd forums., post about a thousand times more there than on here, and this is the one I get dinged on, lol.  Go Figure.

According to the links above, the 2007 stats for Ottawa Ontario is 37., but in the para just above it-says the average hourly rate for Feb 2011 was $14???  I don't understand why there's such a difference.  I can't believe that pharmacists work for that little...$30-$40 I can buy...but $14???

The average weekly earnings for the retail trade sector as a whole were $505.92 in February 2011, an increase of 1.9% on the previous year when average weekly earnings were $496.34. Assuming an average working week of 36 hours, hourly average earnings in this sector for February 2011 were $14.05

Unless, some would have worked 10hours only, (making the hourly more on $40/hr), but the stats still divided by 36??  Would that be at all possible?  How incorrect of a manner to represent those stats heh?

[Rocknroll]

Occam:

It's my understanding that you cannot "just come in off the street" into a ROTP pharmacy program. You must be accepted into a pharmacy school, and those schools require at least one and possibly two or three years of university before you are eligible to apply. At least one drug chain will give you 50,000 dollars in school if you agree to work for them afterward for 4 years. I think the starting wage was around 90,000 per year (on top of the recruitment bonus) for a new grad.

And don't get me wrong...I'm not saying pharmacy students should receive the same pay as medical or dentistry students, but pharmacists make well above what most professions do. I'd put it on a level similar to law, which, coincidentally enough, has its own payscale.

Ballz:

Not ripped off, but pharmacy students have a lot of options. There are hefty offers and signing bonuses from drug chains, they have student lines of credit that are beyond what the average arts or science student can get. And don't forget a licensed pharmacist will make close to or over 100k. It's not an average degree program, and should be compensated in a similar fashion to how law, medicine, and dentistry are. I'm not saying the same as medical students, but if you don't offer at least close to what they can make civie side...well, get used to pharmacist shortages.

Dapaterson:

You are absolutely mistaken on what pharmacists make. Barely above minimum wage? Perhaps you are thinking of pharmacy technicians....although even they make between 20-30 dollars an hour. I don't know any pharmacists that HAVE to work late night shifts. I would guess they either prefer it, don't mind it, or make more because of it. I do know of pharmacies that close early because the pharmacist(s) won't work late nights.

-----

Let me just reiterate my argument again to be clear. I am not saying pharmacists should make as much as medical or dental officers. Legal officers don't make as much either, yet they still have a separate payscale...
You cannot enter a pharmacy program right out of high school (unless you apply and are accepted to a 6 year program). It is like law, medicine and dentistry in the fact that you must complete a number of years of university coursework, as well as certain science prereqs to apply. Further, a pharmacy grad stands to earn MUCH more than your average grad. There is a current and chronic shortage of pharmacists in the CF according to what I've heard.

From all of that, it makes sense to me to offer pharmacists an educational and professional compensation package that is more in line with what they would make civie side. I know there are people who will disagree, and that's fine. To those people I would ask, though...why is it the CF has trouble attracting and retaining pharmacists?

[Occam]

Occam:

It's my understanding that you cannot "just come in off the street" into a ROTP pharmacy program. You must be accepted into a pharmacy school, and those schools require at least one and possibly two or three years of university before you are eligible to apply. At least one drug chain will give you 50,000 dollars in school if you agree to work for them afterward for 4 years. I think the starting wage was around 90,000 per year (on top of the recruitment bonus) for a new grad.

And don't get me wrong...I'm not saying pharmacy students should receive the same pay as medical or dentistry students, but pharmacists make well above what most professions do. I'd put it on a level similar to law, which, coincidentally enough, has its own payscale.

According to the recruiting website, you're mostly incorrect.  A pharmacy student can be enrolled into ROTP if they have unconditional acceptance into one of the degree-granting Canadian Colleges of Clinical Pharmacy.  See http://www.forces.ca/en/job/pharmacyofficer-48#info-1.

I know the recruiting website can have out of date information, but I believe pharmacy officers were "in-demand" not that long ago, so the information is likely current.