Topic: Naval Officers Once Again to Wear the Executive Curl

[Colin P]

The green uniform was actually introduced to the public circa 1966, which was before JV Allard becoming CDS. The actual architect is lost in the mists of time, but it probably originated in one of Paul Hellyer's circle of toadies advisers. It was a logical extension of the amendment to the NDA which came into effect at the end of February 1968 and grouped us all into a single service. Thus, it was planned before the act was passed and promulgated. Edit to add: Allard became CDS in mid-1966, but I still maintain the single service uniform had been unveiled before then. Could he have changed the decision to go for a single uniform? Probably not, even if he had wanted to. I still maintain it was a political decision.

Allard, who was a large officer, embraced it and appeared in a CF green dress uniform at one of the last ceremonial parades herld by 4 CMBG in North Germany before the move to Lahr and Baden. Suffice to say, he looked like a pale version of Idi Amin, or maybe a Franco Herman Goering. If that does not give you an indication of what I thought about the whole bloody thing, you have not been paying attention.

Thank you for the background, as always with this site you will learn something new everyday. Regardless of who introduced it long past due to be rid of the whole sorry idea.

[Pusser]

A couple of things to note in the comments above:

The "Wavy Navy" was the Royal Canadian Naval Volunteer Reserve (RCNVR) made up of non-professional sailors, usually trained at units inland.  Their officers wore wavy rank stripes and the curl was squarish.  The Royal Canadian Naval Reserve (RCNR) was made up of professional sailors (e.g. merchant marine) and their officers' rank stripes were made up of two intertwined half-strips of braid and their curl formed a six-pointed star.  These stripes were sometimes referred to as "cable-link."  The regular (RCN) officers were sometimes referred to as "straight-stripers."  In the 1950s, the RCNR and RCNVR were amalgamated into the RCN(R) and the wavy and cable link stripes disappeared.  The placement of an "R" inside the curl is used in the UK, but I don't believe it was ever used in Canada.  I think we had switched to green before that was introduced there.

The RCN discontinued trade level badges (i.e. the use of stars and crowns to denote level) in 1951 when new Canadian trade badges were introduced to replace the British ones (a Mainguy report recommendation to make the RCN more Canadian).  Thus, everybody from Ordinary Seaman to Chief wore the same badge (with a maple leaf) except in those cases where career advancement meant actually changing trades (e.g. mechanics became artificers).  This practice has been carried into the naval trade badges currently in use.  Interestingly, the Army versions denote trade level.

I don't think the Naval leadership was so much against this intitiative as much as they just see other priorities right now.  The Fleet is on the verge of rust-out.  On the other hand, sometimes little things can do a lot for morale and should be considered.  Sometimes the leadership can forget that.

Doing something just because the Prince asked a question?  It wouldn't be the first time.  There's an entire regiment of the British Army where everyone wears corporals stripes (i.e two of the them).  It all started apparently because Queen Victoria commented one day that one stripe looked a little scruffy on a guard at the palace.  The next day everybody had two and have had them ever since.  The current CF salute actually came from the Navy who started turning the hand forward (vice the traditional Army open-handed salute that he Mounties sitll use) back in the 19th Century because Queen Victoria didn't like to see the sailors' tar-stained hands.

Not that it's really on topic, but I just absolutely cringe when I hear people say "Captain Navy So and So" or "Lieutenant Navy Bloggins."  The ranks are pronounced "Captain" or "Lieutenant" (non-existent "Fs" aside) and "Navy" is not supposed to be said OR written out.  The book says that when it is a naval rank, the letter "N" shall follow in brackets to denote that it is a naval rank.  Nowhere does it say that you say it or write it.  Thus, it should be Capt(N), Captain(N), Lt(N) or Lieutenant(N) and that's it!!!  If you need to tell people that you are a Captain or Lieutenant "Navy" when speaking to them, your command presence is not sufficient for the office you hold.  Minor concessions are allowed for telephone conversations if necessary (e.g. securing accomodations for a Captain(N)).

As for the executive curl, I'm all for it.  I think our regular uniforms should match our mess kit.  I'd also like to see the Army with pips and crowns (although perhaps using something other than the British Bath Star might be in order - a maple leaf perhaps?).  Junior sailors should also be in square rig, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

[gcclarke]

The following is best spoken in a nice southern drawl:

Now, is that a "Yes Sir!" Captain, or a "Hey you!" Captain?

People making the distinction when there is no reason whatsoever to do so is probably my 2nd biggest work-related pet peeve. The first being people who say "The HMCS Insert-ship-name-here". If it's Friday in the NCR and you're introducing me, then sure, you might want to specify what element I'm in. But if I'm in uniform, they can bloody well see that I'm in the Navy.

The most egregious example that I've seen was at an NTO Mess dinner, at which awards were being presented for top candidates for various phases in the CSEO and MSEO training. The nice Lieutenant who was making the announcements made sure that he specified that this award, which inherently can only be presented to a Naval Officer, was being awarded to a "Lieutenant(Navy)". This despite the fact that the only two people in the room who weren't in the Navy were the Air Force Image Tech taking the pictures and the Bartender.

Oh, and in those rare occasions where one has to specify verbally, I typically use "Naval Lieutenant". It just sounds less idiotic.

[Oldgateboatdriver]

The placement of an "R" inside the curl is used in the UK, but I don't believe it was ever used in Canada. 

It was: I have seen some on display in Reserve Units "mini-museum" display cases. They had the "R" and Canada shoulder badges.

I don't think the Naval leadership was so much against this intitiative as much as they just see other priorities right now.  The Fleet is on the verge of rust-out. 

It should not be a priority for them. I have been around since mid-70's and the verge of rusting out has been the natural peacetime condition of the Canadian Navy since the early 60's. There is nothing the Naval leadership can do about it (except scream at politicians, perhaps!). This comes from an imbecilic procurement system. It may (I emphasize may before someone crucifies me) make sense for the army, for instance, to buy 100 Leo's in one shut. But no self respecting businessman who operates a fleet of 100 trucks with a lifespan of ten years buys them all at one. He buys 10 new ones every year. That is how Navy procurement should operate too. The fleet is 33 ships strong now (or is it 32?) with an average life span of 35 yrs. We should be welcoming a new ship to the fleet every year, while saying goodbye to another one, just as we should see one unit a year go into mid-life and one return from it. It is incredible that politicians who have been struggling for years to come up with a shipbuilding support policy do not even grasp such a simple concept.

P.S.: I agree it would be nice to see the square rig  back, but please, with a modern day solution to the %^&*$#@ jumper that took an hour to get into.

[gcclarke]

I will say, tradition for tradition's sake is fine, but not when it comes at the expense of functionality. I can't really see any way of designing square rig that's more functional than the NICE NCDs that are coming out. And you know what? Should someone manage to do so, I'd expect Officers to wear them too. Wearing different kit is all well and good when ashore (DEU versus NCDs), but operational kit should reflect the job that people are doing, not their rank.

[FSTO]

I will say, tradition for tradition's sake is fine, but not when it comes at the expense of functionality. I can't really see any way of designing square rig that's more functional than the NICE NCDs that are coming out. And you know what? Should someone manage to do so, I'd expect Officers to wear them too. Wearing different kit is all well and good when ashore (DEU versus NCDs), but operational kit should reflect the job that people are doing, not their rank.

DEU's and square rig (if that came about) would be only for ceremonial or if you are posted ashore. Working dress will always be the NCD's.
My biggest pet peeve is seeing folks who are posted to an office (MARPAC/LANT CMS Ottawa) wearing NCD's. They think it makes them look operational, I think it makes them look stupid.

[Michael O'Leary]

So, a new square rig would be like a Navy version of Garrison Dress?

[Pusser]

No, "square rig" is a ceremonial uniform.  The Americans refer to it as their "Cracker Jack" outfit.  It's a traditinal sailor suit, complete with bell bottom trousers, seaman's cap (the one the sea cadets still wear) and an open-front jumper with seaman's collar (the flap on the back).  It's a sharp uniform and leaves no doubt that the person wearing is a sailor.  I was wearing the current DEU one day and someone asked me if I worked for Air Canada (which was a step above being confused for a bus driver or baggage handler, which happened to me when we wore green, but still wrong)!

It is worth noting that the US Navy dropped their "Cracker Jacks" in the 70s and saw their recruiting numbers plummet.  They were re-introduced shortly thereafter.

On the subject of colour between rank stripes (officially known as "distinction cloth").  Both the RCN and RN dropped it in the early 60s (prior to unification), largely because they ran out of colours.  There were too many specialist branches to go with the colours of cloth available and so many were wearing light green, which ended up as the general catch-all colour.  There is the story of a laundry officer during WWII who was captured and taken for "special" interrogation because the Nazis thought he was an intelligence officer (both branches wore light green - BTW, the electrical branch wore dark green).  The only branch(es) that kept distinction cloth were the medical officers (doctors) who wore (and still wear) scarlet and the non-doctors of the medical branches (pharmacists, nurses, MAOs, etc) who wore (and still wear) maroon.

Oldegateboatdriver - did your jumper not have a zipper?  I thought the RCN re-designed them in the 50/60s (many years before the RN did the same).  I certainly had no difficulty putting on the one I wore as a sea cadet in the 70s (which had a zipper).  And no, mine was not specifically manufactured for the Sea Cadets.  As I recall, the Tip Top Tailor tag inside said it was manufactured in the late 50s - I thought it was kind of cool to wear a uniform that was older than I was!

[gcclarke]

Ahhh my mistake. Sorry.

[RumRunner]

It should not be a priority for them. I have been around since mid-70's and the verge of rusting out has been the natural peacetime condition of the Canadian Navy since the early 60's. There is nothing the Naval leadership can do about it (except scream at politicians, perhaps!). This comes from an imbecilic procurement system. It may (I emphasize may before someone crucifies me) make sense for the army, for instance, to buy 100 Leo's in one shut. But no self respecting businessman who operates a fleet of 100 trucks with a lifespan of ten years buys them all at one. He buys 10 new ones every year. That is how Navy procurement should operate too. The fleet is 33 ships strong now (or is it 32?) with an average life span of 35 yrs. We should be welcoming a new ship to the fleet every year, while saying goodbye to another one, just as we should see one unit a year go into mid-life and one return from it. It is incredible that politicians who have been struggling for years to come up with a shipbuilding support policy do not even grasp such a simple concept.

 

There you go again. Making perfectly good sense.

OGBD FOR PRIME MINISTER 

[Privateer]

If the executive curl were to be reintroduced, I wonder what this would mean for commodores and admirals?  Would they revert to sleeve rings only (and lose the shoulder rank), or would all the admirals have a sleeve rank that looks like a commodore and keep the shoulder ranks?  I think that to do this properly it would have to be the former.  Perhaps this is what causes angst among the higher-ups:  Loss of uniform rank insignia at the flag/general officer level.

[mariomike]

It is worth noting that the US Navy dropped their "Cracker Jacks" in the 70s and saw their recruiting numbers plummet.  They were re-introduced shortly thereafter.

Jack Nicholson wore the USN "Cracker Jack" in a movie filmed ( some of it in Toronto ) back in the early 1970's. There was a lady who made a sarcastic remark about the uniform. He told her exactly what he liked most about it! 

[cheeky_monkey]

As for quadrapiper's question, no executive curl for snotties! That is to say, Portugal is the only country that I noticed where naval cadets (Aspirante) wear "Elliot's Eye". I highly doubt we'll be following their lead in this regard.

When you look at other navies with the curl, it's always with a thick bar. Now consider the rank of SLt. That little spaghetti strap will obviously have to be curled, so by extention, why not NCdts?  It's only logical to have all officers wearing the curl - be it subordinate or commissioned.

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Oldegateboatdriver - did your jumper not have a zipper?  I thought the RCN re-designed them in the 50/60s (many years before the RN did the same).  I certainly had no difficulty putting on the one I wore as a sea cadet in the 70s (which had a zipper).  And no, mine was not specifically manufactured for the Sea Cadets.  As I recall, the Tip Top Tailor tag inside said it was manufactured in the late 50s - I thought it was kind of cool to wear a uniform that was older than I was!

We must have been in the Cadets about the same time. I can most certainly tell you that my jumper did NOT have a zipper and was service pattern. Neither did my father's but he left the service shortly after Korea. I seem to remember the summer white jumper having a zipper but I only wore it a few weeks on a gun crew for sunset ceremony. Is that the one you had in mind?

If the executive curl were to be reintroduced, I wonder what this would mean for commodores and admirals?  Would they revert to sleeve rings only (and lose the shoulder rank), or would all the admirals have a sleeve rank that looks like a commodore and keep the shoulder ranks?  I think that to do this properly it would have to be the former.  Perhaps this is what causes angst among the higher-ups:  Loss of uniform rank insignia at the flag/general officer level.

The former (the old sleeve rings only) would be visually more pleasing. I do not think the admirals would complain: If you ever saw a British Vice Admiral walking by with a British Lieutenant General beside him, I can almost guarantee you would be much more impressed with the admiral than the general. Moreover, the current officer rank system, which was kept from unification, used the naval stripes system. Before that, army generals never wore a broad stripe on their sleeves. I think that the consistency of the naval system is such that, even if we went back to the sleeve rings only for admiral, there is enough exposure to the "system" that anyone from the army or air force would easily figure it out: "Gee Sarge! She's got one of them broad stripie and two smaller ones above, would that make her, like two ranks above a Bgen?"

[gcclarke]

When you look at other navies with the curl, it's always with a thick bar. Now consider the rank of SLt. That little spaghetti strap will obviously have to be curled, so by extention, why not NCdts?  It's only logical to have all officers wearing the curl - be it subordinate or commissioned.

My guess would be that the issue of how to work the Subbie curl into things will be to place the stripe below the bar and curl. I suppose alternatively we could work it the same way it is done on the mess kit, which is to have no visual indication whatsoever between the two. Or give subbies the bar, and have our "Midshipman" equivalents wear that little white tab thingie they did before the day everyone wore green. And still do in every other Commonwealth navy.

If we follow your logic we should also have all officers receiving salutes, be it subordinate or commissioned. It's all the same, right? 

The entire point of this motion is to go back to our roots, re-introduce a traditional emblem that we inherited from the RN. I don't think we'll be doing so by giving our NCdts a rank insignia that they would not wear anywhere else in the Commonwealth.

[cheeky_monkey]

My guess would be that the issue of how to work the Subbie curl into things will be to place the stripe below the bar and curl.

That would be one bastardized looking rank.

I suppose alternatively we could work it the same way it is done on the mess kit, which is to have no visual indication whatsoever between the two. Or give subbies the bar, and have our "Midshipman" equivalents wear that little white tab thingie they did before the day everyone wore green. And still do in every other Commonwealth navy.

I'm a NCdt, not a MIDN. I like my spaghetti strap, thanks.

If we follow your logic we should also have all officers receiving salutes, be it subordinate or commissioned. It's all the same, right? 

No. The only difference in the current sleeve and shoulder insignia between an ASLt and a NCdt is 1/4 of an inch of gold braid.

Both ranks wear a bar as indicator of rank. Likewise, adding the curl to both would not change anything. One rank entails the possession of a scroll, the other does not; one rank gets a salute, the other does not - seems pretty clear to me.

The entire point of this motion is to go back to our roots, re-introduce a traditional emblem that we inherited from the RN. I don't think we'll be doing so by giving our NCdts a rank insignia that they would not wear anywhere else in the Commonwealth.

That's fine, however it would be something that is distinctly Canadian, while still returning to our roots.

[Michael O'Leary]

No, "square rig" is a ceremonial uniform. 

Well, that makes it quite simple.  All the Navy has to do is authorize a pattern and then decide to what level it's going to delegate the responsibility to raise the non-public funds to pay for them.

CANADIAN FORCES DRESS INSTRUCTIONS

CHAPTER 5

FULL DRESS AND UNDRESS UNIFORMS
OVERVIEW 
 
1. Full dress and undress are optional uniforms which may be worn on formal occasions. Together with standard mess dress (No. 2 Order – see Chapter 6, Annex B), they form a group of related items which reflect the functional heritage of military organizations. 
 
2. Except as provided in paragraph 3., these optional uniforms are worn at no expense to the public (see Chapter 2, Section 1, paragraphs 24. to 27.). 
 
3. Grants are provided to assist authorized bands and alternative voluntary ceremonial sub-units in maintaining ceremonial uniforms not provided at public expense. See QR&O 210.345, 210.354 and CFAO 210.18. Full dress and some undress uniform items are provided at public expense for RMC and the Ceremonial Guard, Ottawa.

[gcclarke]

That would be one bastardized looking rank.
I'm a NCdt, not a MIDN. I like my spaghetti strap, thanks.

No. The only difference in the current sleeve and shoulder insignia between an ASLt and a NCdt is 1/4 of an inch of gold braid.

Both ranks wear a bar as indicator of rank. Likewise, adding the curl to both would not change anything. One rank entails the possession of a scroll, the other does not; one rank gets a salute, the other does not - seems pretty clear to me.

That's fine, however it would be something that is distinctly Canadian, while still returning to our roots.

When I was referring to Midshipmen, I was going by the RN usage of the term vice the USN usage, equivalent to out A/SLt.

As for the rest of it, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, and see how things actually play out when the new dress instructions are promulgated.

[N. McKay]

It is worth noting that the US Navy dropped their "Cracker Jacks" in the 70s and saw their recruiting numbers plummet.  They were re-introduced shortly thereafter.

The affected members having voted overwhelmingly in favour (in some sort of plebiscite), as I understand it.

[ekpiper]

I am actually happy to see the return of the executive curl, although I hope this is the first step to an increase of awareness for the Navy's current plight.  Sadly, however, the new budget has already been presented with no funding specified for new vessels, so I'm inclined to think that new ships will be postponed for another couple years at least.

With regards to the insignia for the NCdt, I think that they will have the curl, styled similarly to the old RN Warrant Officer rank shown here: http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Pers-Warrant%20Rank.htm

With respect to the rest of the system (S/Lt, Adm.), I'm inclined to think that the CF will not change the structure of the insignia any more than by adding the curl.  By that, I mean that the S/Lt will have the curl on the thin stripe, and all Admirals will have a single broad stripe with a circle "curl" just touching the stripe .  Epaulette wise, I think that nothing will change, save for the addition of the curl from NCdt-Capt.

[Acer Syrup]

That would be one bastardized looking rank.

Iceland did it....

[Blackadder1916]

The green uniform was actually introduced to the public circa 1966, which was before JV Allard becoming CDS. The actual architect is lost in the mists of time, but it probably originated in one of Paul Hellyer's circle of toadies advisers. It was a logical extension of the amendment to the NDA which came into effect at the end of February 1968 and grouped us all into a single service. Thus, it was planned before the act was passed and promulgated. Edit to add: Allard became CDS in mid-1966, but I still maintain the single service uniform had been unveiled before then. Could he have changed the decision to go for a single uniform? Probably not, even if he had wanted to. I still maintain it was a political decision.

While the actual idiot architect (save Hellyer or his principal toady, Bill 'Leaky' Lee) of the concept for single uniform may never be categorically identified, there was some mention of the officer who accomplished this assignment in a thesis*, a copy of which I found in my office when I retired from the military. (I don't know why or how it came to be in my office, but I kept a copy)

* Varner, Joseph Bruce.  Unification of the Canadian Armed Forces and the impact of Inter-Service Rivalry.  Thesis submitted in partial fulfillment of the requirements for the Degree of Master of Arts in Political Science. Acadia University 1991

from page 40 of the thesis
". . .
     The RCAF even designed the new uniform, which was derived from the USAF officers' dress.  Ed Reyno was responsible for designing and pushing through the new order of dress.  The Minister picked the rifle green colour to make it truly Canadian and then the old uniforms, along with their great traditions, were discarded. ⁵⁷
. . . "
footnote 57 references  Paul Hellyer's book Damn The Torpedoes: My Fight To Unify Canada's Armed Forces pp. 172-173 and an interview with Mr Hellyer as the source for this information.

The "Ed Reyno" mentioned is Air Vice Marshal Reyno who was Chief of Personnel.

[Old Sweat]

Thanks for the additional info. As Chief of Personnel, Reyno supervised the directorate that looked after dress and ceremonial. I remember three things about Reyno, who was a Battle of Britian veteran. First, in 1966 he sat in on a 4 CIBG officers' study group. When asked by the commander to add some remarks, he told the brigade officers that he had been able to solve the RCAF pilot drain by coming up with a retention bonus. The brigade commander, who had as short fuze, opined that he didn't give a .... if every officer in the RCAF got out tomorrow.

Reyno also would have played a major part in the adoption of the automatic promotion to corporal, which I believe was introduced because TB would not authorize a large pay raise for career privates, ordinary seamen and especially leading aircraftsmen and women. It played havoc with discipline, the chain of command and the very structure of the army and I suspect the other services. 

And last, but not least. There used to be a program called the Deserving Serviceman Program in which a very few selected junior ranks who were retiring and spouse were given seats on the air transport global training and resupply flights which flew around the world. There were only a few flights a year, and usually only one or two members went on these flights. Anyway, circa 1971 Reyno was retiring and he and his wife got the deserving seviceman spaces on a 707 flight that was off on a several week west to east circumnavigation flight of the world. (Such a thing would be unthinkable these days, what with blogs, army.ca and other devices that tend to point out sneaky tricks like this.)

Sorry for the hijack, but I disliked him and some of the stunts he pulled intensely. The intervening years have not modified my feelings for the better.

[E.R. Campbell]

Old Sweat is correct about the bastardization of the corporals and captains being a pay issue.

Most of you weren't even born, but we had a series of fairly sharp recessions in the 1950s that played havoc with the nation's finances. One or two people here will recall 'Dief the Chief's (Prime Minister John Diefenbaker) "austerity programme." It made the "decade of darkness" look positively bright. Anyway, the financial problems were coupled with rampant inflation in the cost of burgeoning new technologies (in every service) and a growing public dissatisfaction with the high levels of peacetime defence spending authorized by St Laurent and continued, relatively, by Diefenbaker and Pearson.

There was, also, a "we support the troops when we're needing them, not when we're just feeding them" feeling about in the country, especially amongst the World War II veterans who were, by then (1960-70), in positions of influence and authority in government and industry.

The defence bureaucracy, intent on building a better educated military, was pushing hard for pay raises; the political centre, under public pressure, would not agree. Military salaries in the late '50s and early '60s were falling father and father behind, making it harder and harder to recruit the people needed - quantitatively and qualitatively.

The 'Hellyer corporal' and the commissioned counterpart the 'instant captain' and their corollaries the CFLs (captain and corporal for life) were the result of a little ill considered bureaucratic sleight of hand that got badly out of hand.

There was a follow-up: 'benchmarking' military occupations with civil service equivalents. That project, which was a real boon to our, military, pay packets, was also ill considered and sloppily implemented.

Good intentions, even the best of intentions in all cases, but second rate staff work - too little analysis of consequences, produced less than optimal results.


Edit: typo

[Sailorwest]

I am actually happy to see the return of the executive curl, although I hope this is the first step to an increase of awareness for the Navy's current plight.  Sadly, however, the new budget has already been presented with no funding specified for new vessels, so I'm inclined to think that new ships will be postponed for another couple years at least.

With regards to the insignia for the NCdt, I think that they will have the curl, styled similarly to the old RN Warrant Officer rank shown here: http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Pers-Warrant%20Rank.htm

With respect to the rest of the system (S/Lt, Adm.), I'm inclined to think that the CF will not change the structure of the insignia any more than by adding the curl.  By that, I mean that the S/Lt will have the curl on the thin stripe, and all Admirals will have a single broad stripe with a circle "curl" just touching the stripe .  Epaulette wise, I think that nothing will change, save for the addition of the curl from NCdt-Capt.

I could see that we return to the former rank structure for the dress uniform where there is broad stripe with additional stripes for rear an vice admirals. As for subbies and cadets, my thoughts are that cadets will retain a single thin stripe, with no curl, acting subs will retain the same single stripe, with no curl and subbies will get the single stripe with a curl.