Topic: Naval Officers Once Again to Wear the Executive Curl

[Oldgateboatdriver]

No worries Journeyman [3]: the "wavy-Navy" stripes were canned in canada shortly after WWII while the Navy was still Royal. So there is no going back. After the "Wavy" and until unification the reserve officers of all Reserves (in those days there were two reserves: the Volunteer reserve and the Reserve, which was made of Merchant seaman. Each had its own different wavy pattern in WWII) wore the straight bars with an "R" inside the curl.

By the way, Mia does not have to worry: I have seen how the Brits do it: The curls and wide bar are a single piece pre-sewn at the shop by the supplier so all there is to do for the tailor is sow it on the uniform in one piece, just like the "tape" we now use.

P.S.: We could just start wearing them at least at sea, without "formal approval". In the days of the green unibags, that is how we started the Navy Whites revolution: we just started buying USN pattern whites and wear them on special occasions, then on Fridays for weepers, then when officer of the day, then ... You get the point.

[Snakedoc]

This is great news to see and about time!  I never thought the politicians would ever have this on their radar, let alone pass a motion to consider bringing this back.  I fully support this and think that it would be great for a stronger sense of naval identity.  Not a bad Centennial gift for the Navy IMO.

[gcclarke]

P.S.: We could just start wearing them at least at sea, without "formal approval". In the days of the green unibags, that is how we started the Navy Whites revolution: we just started buying USN pattern whites and wear them on special occasions, then on Fridays for weepers, then when officer of the day, then ... You get the point.

I actually do know one MARSie who already does this for. He either them made, or obtained a pair of Royal Navy Lieutenant shoulderboards. He typically wears them for things like RPCs and when the XO orders "red sea rig".

As for quadrapiper's question, no executive curl for snotties! That is to say, Portugal is the only country that I noticed where naval cadets (Aspirante) wear "Elliot's Eye". I highly doubt we'll be following their lead in this regard.

[RumRunner]

If the naval officers get their executive curl, I think it would be fair for the NCMs to get their sea-time service stripes.

[Oldgateboatdriver]

If the naval officers get their executive curl, I think it would be fair for the NCMs to get their sea-time service stripes.

Hear! Hear! RumRunner.

And their trade level badges, and the killicks instead of maple leaf for PO2 and below.

[Sailorwest]

I am going to take a very much wait and see approach on this. A motion in parliament such as this doesn't have a lot of weight behind it and given that the Naval Board comments, it certainly doesn't seem to be a priority of the adults in the Navy.

The comment that intrigued me was that the 'man who would be king' while attending  a ceremony he was at in Canada, questioned the CDS or the minister why his Canadian Naval uniform did not have the curl. Apparently the CDS and MND are the ones who have pushed for this to occur after being asked about it by Charles. I heard that there is to be an announcement in May. All rumours of course but fun to share. 

[ModlrMike]

Is there some specific reason the Minister and CDS can't make it so on their own authorities?

[Michael O'Leary]

Is there some specific reason the Minister and CDS can't make it so on their own authorities?

Well, firstly:

All rumours of course but fun to share. 

And think of how long a thread we'd have here if the Minister and the CDS simply decided one day to order the Navy to start wearing the curl "because the Prince wanted it".

It would be an orgy of online rhetoric from the Naval protectionists, the ant-Monarchists and the "first, let's kill all the politicos" in their race to be the best at butchering the Queen's English over the affront it would have been to each of them personally.

[ModlrMike]

And think of how long a thread we'd have here if the Minister and the CDS simply decided one day to order the Navy to start wearing the curl "because the Prince wanted it".

It would be an orgy of online rhetoric from the Naval protectionists, the ant-Monarchists and the "first, let's kill all the politicos" in their race to be the best at butchering the Queen's English over the affront it would have been to each of them personally.

Too true! 

However, is there any regulatory limit?

[dapaterson]

Too true! 

However, is there any regulatory limit?

QR&Os have an idea.

17.01 – UNIFORMS

Members of the Canadian Forces shall wear the uniforms prescribed by the Chief of the Defence Staff.

[Colin P]

Slowly undoing the poison's of the Trudeau era. Looking forward to it becoming official.

[Jim Seggie]

Slowly undoing the poison's of the Trudeau era. Looking forward to it becoming official.

I remember not too fondly the "Trudeau era" The decade of darkness was in reality about two decades.
Sorry, got off topic.

To my Naval comrades, I hope that it does happen!

[dapaterson]

Slowly undoing the poison's of the Trudeau era. Looking forward to it becoming official.

I guess this will be next, then...

[Dimsum]

There will be no difference between Reg and Res.
Also, scuttlebutt says that the Admiral was dead against it but that he was overrode by the Minister and CDS.

I personally can't think of any reason why the Admiral (or anyone else, for that matter) would be against it, unless it was based on $ or convenience reasons (ie. Mia trying to get all west coast Naval Officers to get it done at once.)  Were there any reasons put forward why the senior leadership would be against it?  It's not like they're trying to change the entire uniform.

[Chanada]

Slowly undoing the poison's of the Trudeau era. Looking forward to it becoming official.

Sorry ...you can blame PET for a lot including ushering in the decades of darkness...but the "distinctive" green uniform and approach to a single set of rank badges etc... to it came with Lester Pearson and the architect/designer of the green was the CDS at the time...JV Allard...

[Le Adder Noir]

Sorry ...you can blame PET for a lot including ushering in the decades of darkness...but the "distinctive" green uniform and approach to a single set of rank badges etc... to it came with Lester Pearson and the architect/designer of the green was the CDS at the time...JV Allard...

Very true! (especially the bit about blaming PET a lot )

[Corps of Guides]

I hope this may  indicate an eventual return to the pip-system for Army officers, and a less-visually-repulsive system for our Air Force officers (aka, the blue-on-blue of our commonwealth contemporaries/historic uniforms).

[FusMR]

I hope this may  indicate an eventual return to the pip-system for Army officers, and a less-visually-repulsive system for our Air Force officers (aka, the blue-on-blue of our commonwealth contemporaries/historic uniforms).

I think it is a good idea for the navy.   It doesnt change a thing but the pip system, it's an other story.  I'm in for 24 years and never saw that here.   Aldo, I know the system.  The actual rank system his good.  Dont change it.

[Old Sweat]

Sorry ...you can blame PET for a lot including ushering in the decades of darkness...but the "distinctive" green uniform and approach to a single set of rank badges etc... to it came with Lester Pearson and the architect/designer of the green was the CDS at the time...JV Allard...

The green uniform was actually introduced to the public circa 1966, which was before JV Allard becoming CDS. The actual architect is lost in the mists of time, but it probably originated in one of Paul Hellyer's circle of toadies advisers. It was a logical extension of the amendment to the NDA which came into effect at the end of February 1968 and grouped us all into a single service. Thus, it was planned before the act was passed and promulgated. Edit to add: Allard became CDS in mid-1966, but I still maintain the single service uniform had been unveiled before then. Could he have changed the decision to go for a single uniform? Probably not, even if he had wanted to. I still maintain it was a political decision.

Allard, who was a large officer, embraced it and appeared in a CF green dress uniform at one of the last ceremonial parades herld by 4 CMBG in North Germany before the move to Lahr and Baden. Suffice to say, he looked like a pale version of Idi Amin, or maybe a Franco Herman Goering. If that does not give you an indication of what I thought about the whole bloody thing, you have not been paying attention.

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I hope this may  indicate an eventual return to the pip-system for Army officers, and a less-visually-repulsive system for our Air Force officers (aka, the blue-on-blue of our commonwealth contemporaries/historic uniforms).

Would be great for our friends in the "R"CAF. Why stop there. Even under unification, we in the Navy managed to re-introduce our rank system as it quickly became clear that the "army" ones didn't work for us: A ship with seven Captains!!! That was worse than a Captain with seven children!!! So why not relieve the air force of the lieutenants, captains, majors and so forth to give them back their Flying Officers, Squadron Leaders and Group Captains ? If the Navy could do it under unification (and it was official in the CFAO's) the Air Force could get it done even now without any Act of Parliament.

[N. McKay]

So why not relieve the air force of the lieutenants, captains, majors and so forth to give them back their Flying Officers, Squadron Leaders and Group Captains ?

I think the main reason is that the rank names do not fit with the current organization of the air force; there's been a rank inflation of one step in key command positions.

If they were to shift back to their pre-unification ranks they would have wing commanders commanding squadrons and group captains commanding wings.  Squadron leaders would not lead squadrons, and there is no longer such a thing as a "group" in the same sense that there was in the RCAF.

[Old Sweat]

Pre-unification as far as I can recall, RCAF squadrons were commanded by Wing Commanders. I believe this also was the case in the later years of the Second World War.

Given the close ties between our air force and the USAF, I wonder how much support there is for a reversion to RCAF ranks.

[Dimsum]

So why not relieve the air force of the lieutenants, captains, majors and so forth to give them back their Flying Officers, Squadron Leaders and Group Captains ?

Adding to what N. McKay said, there are also many in the AF who aren't aircrew that may object to being called "Pilot Officer" or "Flying Officer".  However, if you want to lessen the amount of "Captains" onboard ship, reverting back to Flight Lieutenant might be easier (and won't confuse the Navy so much.)   

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Adding to what N. McKay said, there are also many in the AF who aren't aircrew that may object to being called "Pilot Officer" or "Flying Officer".  However, if you want to lessen the amount of "Captains" onboard ship, reverting back to Flight Lieutenant might be easier (and won't confuse the Navy so much.)   

There always were "non-aircrew" types in the AF, even in the days of Flight Officers and Pilot Officers. No confusion in ranks in the Navy: we have always known what you other types are called. Only confusion I ever saw was on the faces of assorted landlubbers at AF bases and Army camps when I simply ignored anyone calling me by other than my proper rank. P.S. Dimsum, with "Flight Lt's" are you proposing the return to the fold of those people now in light blue that are kind enough to accept our hospitality from time to time? 

[Dimsum]

P.S. Dimsum, with "Flight Lt's" are you proposing the return to the fold of those people now in light blue that are kind enough to accept our hospitality from time to time?

Well, if they spend over half the year onboard a ship...   

To appease the "but we're not sailors!" crowd, perhaps something distinctive like keeping the light blue shirt with the Naval uniform?  keeping the shaggy mane?   

I shouldn't continue with this too much longer; "they" may start to question my loyalty to Big Blue vice Big "Darker" Blue!