Topic: Fireman carry replaced in BFT

[Spanky]

Well, it is supposed to be done on grass.  I guess all those pants with the butts worn through would look too much like chaps. 

[Journeyman]

...all those pants with the butts worn through would look too much like chaps. 

  Vern will be along any second now.

[mariomike]

Video on the subject. I don't think was posted, yet.

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/land-terre/news-nouvelles/story-reportage-eng.asp?id=4165

[DiamondDarryl]

Well as long as we are going for realism on the BFT we might as well replace the ruck march with a 13km LAV ride displaying moderate vigilance.

[daftandbarmy]

Video on the subject. I don't think was posted, yet.

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/land-terre/news-nouvelles/story-reportage-eng.asp?id=4165

I’ve always wanted the title ‘OPI Drag Implementation’, although up to now I thought that it would have something to do with women’s clothing…
 

[mysteriousmind]

To my humble opinion, for what its worth, I think its a great thing that they change it. I am big and tall, doing the trench and the 13k never has been a problem for me. The fireman carry, that was more of a problem. I think it was hard and dangerous. thing a guy of my stature was some what a big challenge.

As for us in Valcartier, well the dummy thing might pose a problem..as we always do the BFT on a large scale...all nonessential people are to do it so...we end up being 400 and more...I cannot imagine every one waiting for the dummy. Taking someone would make much more sense to me.

So I cannot wait to see when it will be implemented. I have heard this rumor for the past 2 years i think.

[carl_gustav317]

In all honesty, I think we have to admit that the fireman's carry (which by the way, I don't think firemen do anymore) has caused more injuries than lives it has saved. Maybe doing like they do in a fireman's competition and dragging a dummy (or a partner) under the arms for a prescribed distance would be better. Because honestly, unless you are one of the bigger/fitter guys, you likely cant hoist a fully kitted out comrade onto your shoulder. If you are going to evacuate someone, you are going to drag them to cover. If you have to go a distance for casevac, you are going to create some kind of stretcher.
We used stretchers at the JSG as a trial, two man with 200lbs on it, over the length of a soccer field. The only down side was it was a killer on the wrists if the front guy dropped the stretcher before stopping.

you are absolutely correct, we do not throw anyone over our shoulders to carry them off to safety. this carry leads to injuries for both the firefighter and the casualty. the preferred method is to drag the casualty. I agree that this new policy for the drag vs. carry is more practical but the back strap on the tac vest will more than likely break. instead, should try to convince psp staff to let you carry by the shoulder pieces of the vest. Or get a length of rope or tubular nylon to place under the armpits/across the chest to help drag.

[dangerboy]

you are absolutely correct, we do not throw anyone over our shoulders to carry them off to safety. this carry leads to injuries for both the firefighter and the casualty. the preferred method is to drag the casualty. I agree that this new policy for the drag vs. carry is more practical but the back strap on the tac vest will more than likely break. instead, should try to convince psp staff to let you carry by the shoulder pieces of the vest. Or get a length of rope or tubular nylon to place under the armpits/across the chest to help drag.

You will not be able to convince PSP on how you want to do the drag as there is offical policy LFCO 24-02

The casualty will lie down on their back with their shoulders even with the start line while crossing their arms across their chest and grabbing the collar of their tac vest or webbing firmly.  This will prevent the tac vest from possibly riding up and causing discomfort.  The soldier will squat down and grasp the casualty by the tac vest with both hands, making sure lift with the legs and not the back.  The soldier will perform a single lift of the injured soldier to assume the position for the drag. 

28.   The soldier will perform the drag by walking backwards in a continuous manner for a distance of 25m.  There is no time limit for this evaluation, however if the soldier pauses, it will be considered an unsuccessful attempt.  The drag will be complete when the feet of the casualty cross the 25m line.

[ekpiper]

You will not be able to convince PSP on how you want to do the drag as there is offical policy LFCO 24-02

I'm guessing that by convince, he meant get the entire department to change the official policy.

[WB]

I agree that this new policy for the drag vs. carry is more practical but the back strap on the tac vest will more than likely break. instead, should try to convince psp staff to let you carry by the shoulder pieces of the vest.

Video on the subject. I don't think was posted, yet.

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/land-terre/news-nouvelles/story-reportage-eng.asp?id=4165

According to the above video, the drag is to be performed by grabbing shoulder straps in the way you've described.  No one believes that the cheap piece of fabric on the back of the TV (where the drag handle should be) is going to hold anyone's weight.

[kadrury]

I am so glad that they changed it from the fireman carry to the casualty drag. Last year I was being carried by someone during bmq and they dropped me. I landed on my foot the wrong way and I broke my foot in 3 places. I was on PAT platoon for months from surgery to physio. Now I just starting to get my career back on track. So as I said before I am VERY glad they changed this. Maybe no one else will get hurt the same way I did. =)

[recceguy]

Here's a couple of demos from TFD around the 00:55 mark:

Please don't muddy the waters. There are official DND videos out on how to do the DND recognized casualty drag. What, or how, anyone else does it only confuses people.

Milnet.ca Staff

[MedKAWD]

I am so glad that they changed it from the fireman carry to the casualty drag. Last year I was being carried by someone during bmq and they dropped me. I landed on my foot the wrong way and I broke my foot in 3 places. I was on PAT platoon for months from surgery to physio. Now I just starting to get my career back on track. So as I said before I am VERY glad they changed this. Maybe no one else will get hurt the same way I did. =)

I think you're missing the take-away point as to why they changed it. 
I doubt very much that the potential for injury during training is why its been changed.  I would assume its more so to do with the real world application.  If they just took out all the things you have to do on BMQ that could get you hurt well then, goodbye Obstacle Course (Confidence Course now or something?), PT, Field Time, the Range, ect ect.

[George Wallace]

I think you're missing the take-away point as to why they changed it. 
I doubt very much that the potential for injury during training is why its been changed.  I would assume its more so to do with the real world application.  If they just took out all the things you have to do on BMQ that could get you hurt well then, goodbye Obstacle Course (Confidence Course now or something?), PT, Field Time, the Range, ect ect.

Whoa!  Whoa!  Whoa!  You know darn well that many would still be injured with carpal tunnel syndrome (CTS),  or tennis elbow, or some other injury due to inactivity....... Couch Potatoes is not what we want to become.

[Stymiest]

I like that they have replaced the fireman carry with a drag, I always found the fireman carry was a pointless exercise which when wearing full battle gear and trying to lift an average sized man would be damn near impossible. 

As for the drag why don't they just get some of these bad boys



 I use them already in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and you can get them in different sizes, plus it would alleviate the need to use your own troops and possibly wreck equipment and injure personnel.   

[daftandbarmy]

I like that they have replaced the fireman carry with a drag, I always found the fireman carry was a pointless exercise which when wearing full battle gear and trying to lift an average sized man would be damn near impossible. 

As for the drag why don't they just get some of these bad boys



 I use them already in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and you can get them in different sizes, plus it would alleviate the need to use your own troops and possibly wreck equipment and injure personnel.

Do they have them in blonde, chest size around 36B? 

[Stymiest]

Do they have them in blonde, chest size around 36B? 

LOL I was going to post something but then I thought twice about it 

[PuckChaser]

The picture of that grappling dummy just brought back some scary memories of my CQC course, and our "dummy PT". Coincidentally, I know now I'll never ever want to carry someone on my shoulders for any distance. They're getting dragged.

[carl_gustav317]

LOL I was going to post something but then I thought twice about it 

hahaha! i was thinking the same thing!

i am glad they got rid of the fireman's carry. the drag is much more practical.

[MedKAWD]

The picture of that grappling dummy just brought back some scary memories of my CQC course, and our "dummy PT". Coincidentally, I know now I'll never ever want to carry someone on my shoulders for any distance. They're getting dragged.

My most vivid CQC memory is the hour long "warm up" before the 6-8 hours of high kicks and wrist locks.....

[carl_gustav317]

i have some fond memories of the guy in the red-man suite. unleashing his fury on me! until i realized that he wouldn't be hurt. then the head stuns, punches, kicks, and arm bars came into play.

[Petamocto]

What I have just had clarified is the worry about losing the butt of your pants, because the casualty is not being dragged on their butt, but their heals.

Originally I imagined (as did others) thought the drag meant pulling on the Tac Vest alone, but the way this is to be done includes an initial lift with the casualty's head at the level of your head (almost like a back to front bear hug with your arms under their arms).

Edit: Corrected as per below.  The wording includes the word "lift" which is the direction I was given by e-mail and caused my confusion.  As the poster below points out, an official photo still shows it as a butt drag and not a boot drag.  My error of interpretation.

[Haggis]

Originally I imagined (as did others) thought the drag meant pulling on the Tac Vest alone, but the way this is to be done includes an initial lift with the casualty's head at the level of your head (almost like a back to front bear hug with your arms under their arms).

Sorry, but that's incorrect.

Here the correct protocol is described as: "The casualty will lie down on their back with their shoulders even with the start line while crossing their arms across their chest and grabbing the collar of their tac vest or webbing firmly.  This will prevent the tac vest from possibly riding up and causing discomfort.  The soldier will squat down and grasp the casualty by the tac vest with both hands, making sure lift with the legs and not the back. "

[Petamocto]

That is bizarre because I was just given that text as my direction, and if you read the text without seeing the picture, the part that may cause confusion is (to quote) "...ensuring their knees are not locked out.  The soldier will perform a single lift..."

When I read that, I see "lift" to mean "lift" as in get them off the ground.  If you are still dragging them on their butt, there is no "lift" involved.

So it was the way I originally thought it would be, and people will now be back to tearing up the butts of their combat pants en masse if a grassy surface is not used.

[PMedMoe]

Well, you still have to "lift" to get their upper body off the ground.

"The casualty will lie down on their back with their shoulders even with the start line while crossing their arms across their chest and grabbing the collar of their tac vest or webbing firmly.  This will prevent the tac vest from possibly riding up and causing discomfort.  The soldier will squat down and grasp the casualty by the tac vest with both hands, making sure lift with the legs and not the back. "

Yeah, because that's how you'll find the casualty.     I suppose they have to have a standard, though.