Topic: Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicle - RG-31 and LAV Coyote Replacement

[MCG]

Experienced Infantry 'over here' have told me that they consider the 25mm their most important weapon.  "We live or die by the 25!"

That is absolutly the case, and I've won a few heated arguments with individuals trying to convince me the wieght savings might be worth giving up the firepower.  In all cases, they failed to consider options which would offer the weight savings and keep (or increase) firepower.  I think the infantry should keep a proper medium caliber cannon, but a 35 - 40 mm might be a welcomed improvement.

For recce, there may be suitable firepower with a combination of MG, Fire & Forget AT Missile (x 2) and a reduced velocity 30 - 40 mm cannon.

[Infanteer]

- The limitations of the Coyote were more attributable to the shallow tactical backgrounds and lack of imagination of those who directed their tasks, rather than the limitations of the crews or their patrol, troop and squadron leadership.

- Combat Arms soldiers who never had the opportunity of functioning in a brigade-plus environment had little idea of what medium recce was intended to do.  To them, a Recce Sqn of Coyotes was a portable DEW Line.

And there it is - what is the doctrine that is driving this purchase?  I say this as a question as MCG highlighted, I am not too up to speed with Armoured Recce Doctrine and the new GMR Pam (although I should be).  However, I have worked close with, and even been in charge of, a few Coyotes and their flexibility was pretty handy.

With my magical doctrine wand, I see Armoured Recce (or medium recce, as TCBF termed it) as some sort of Cavalry in line with the Aussie Cavalry Regiment, US Cav with their M3s or the Marines with their LARs.  In the Brigade Group context or simply attached to a Battlegroup, it has the firepower, standoff and boots on the ground ability to act as a somewhat independent force.  Look at the US LAR Task Force's dash to Tikrit.

I like the buy of a TAPV for all the "other guys" (CIMIC, Infantry Recce, Force Protection, etc, etc) but in my world, I'd like a next Gen LAV fleet based recce that puts the TOW system to good use as well (having worked with that as well, and really enjoyed it).  Perhaps DLR and the doctrine guys have a different endstate envisioned.

My 2 Cents - feel free to pick apart.

[MCG]

Reading Infanteer's post in the TAPV thread, I think his idea might be the smartest thing. Buy LAV H, put a new surv suite in them with some dismounts. Keep a turret. Take that money out of TAPV.

OK.

It is really nice that there are so many posting here with all kinds of suggestions.  Unfortunately, it is really grating on Armour Corps personnel when people who have absolutely no smic of what they are talking about, start making suggestions about what the Armour Corps needs.

LAV H with a Surv Suite and dismounts is just the latest example.  There is no room for dismounts with a Surv Suite in the back. 

If you don't have the knowledge and experience, you are only making a mockery of the discussion.  Your "outside the box" ideas are for the most part out of the ballpark in the realms of the Tinfoil Hat Brigade.

There may be no room for dismounts & a Surv Suite in the back of a Coyote, but the LAV H is a much bigger beast (even larger than LAV III).  However, while LAV H might fit Surv Suite & a few dismounts, the large size of the vehicle begins to cause problems for stealth & concealment. 

Today I saw a picture of the South African Krokodile.  It is a very recent design and appears to be a 6x6 evolution of the RG-31.  The vehicle has lost a lot of the RG-31's SUV look while appearing more like a real fighting vehicle.  It has two rear doors, appears to have a more stable CG, and apparently was designed with EFP threats in mind.  Unfortunately, aside from a brief mention in a Jane's article, I cannot find any other discussion of the vehicle.  The Krokodile could be completely inappropriate for our needs, or it could be a good fit.

[Matt_Fisher]

Today I saw a picture of the South African Krokodile.  It is a very recent design and appears to be a 6x6 evolution of the RG-31.  The vehicle has lost a lot of the RG-31's SUV look while appearing more like a real fighting vehicle.  It has two rear doors, appears to have a more stable CG, and apparently was designed with EFP threats in mind.  Unfortunately, aside from a brief mention in a Jane's article, I cannot find any other discussion of the vehicle.  The Krokodile could be completely inappropriate for our needs, or it could be a good fit.

Anyway you could get a scan of that picture of the Krokodile and post it on here, or reference the Jane's article in terms of publication and date?

[MCG]

Anyway you could get a scan of that picture of the Krokodile and post it on here, or reference the Jane's article in terms of publication and date?

  It was on a table in a waiting room.  I'm not even sure of the date, except that it was recent.

[Pallas Athena]

Matt,

Was it the old Mechem Krocodil you were looking for (or is there a newer Krocodil)?

If the former, the Krokodil was a Mechem design, weighed 26 tonnes, and was supposed to be good for 15 kg beneath each wheel. It wasn't derived from the RG-31. IIRC, it was more closely related to the Ratel.

[MCG]

The article was "Shaping up for the fight: vehicle design responses to challenge of mine warfare"  from Jane's International Defence Review 10-Mar-2009.  It identifies that "the Krokodil 6x6 experimental armoured carrier developed in South Africa ... has anti-EFP armour under the hull and at the sides of it."

The top picture above is the same as appeared in the Jane's article.

[Matt_Fisher]

Matt,

Was it the old Mechem Krocodil you were looking for (or is there a newer Krocodil)?

If the former, the Krokodil was a Mechem design, weighed 26 tonnes, and was supposed to be good for 15 kg beneath each wheel. It wasn't derived from the RG-31. IIRC, it was more closely related to the Ratel.

BZ for those pics!!!  I saw something very similar on the Force Protection (www.forceprotection.net) homepage circa 2004 and put in a call to their former CTO Garth Barrett (former CO of the C Squadron (Rhodesia) SAS) who told me it was an experimental APC done up for the SADF, but never went into production.  The one that was on the Force Protection website had 6 or 8 wheels (I can't remember for certain which?) and a remote or 1 man turret armed with a 20mm, which Barrett provided me with some background details on; It was heavy, i.e. 35 tons and non C-130 transportable, but armoured/protected well beyond anything else the South Africans had at the time and capable of carrying a full infantry section plus crew. 

Unfortunately, it seems as though Barrett has fallen off the face of the earth after his firing/quitting Force Protection then starting a rival company, Protected Vehicles Inc. which fell into some serious financial trouble 2 years ago, and he is no longer involved.  I've had no luck in finding any other information on that vehicle since the initial conversation I had with Barrett.

After doing some more research, I believe the vehicle was called the Mechem Gator, although there's a slough of other SA vehicles that were under development at the same time:
Iron Eagle 4x4
Mechem MC-90
Mechem Krokodil 6x6
Mechem Gator 8x8
Rooikat-2 ICV
MDB Mantis

Any information on these would be hugely appreciated.

[MCG]

http://www.merx.com/English/SUPPLIER_Menu.Asp?WCE=Show&TAB=1&PORTAL=MERX&State=7&id=PW-%24%24BL-291-18920&FED_ONLY=0&hcode=nD9YVh6OIwXoPPJs5qFGZw%3D%3D

Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicle (TAPV) Letter of Interest/Price and Availability

Trade Agreement: Agreement on Internal Trade (AIT)
Tendering Procedures: All interested suppliers may submit a bid
Attachment: None
Competitive Procurement Strategy: N/A - P&A/LOI Only
Comprehensive Land Claim Agreement: No
Nature of Requirements:
Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicle (TAPV) Letter of Interest/Price
and Availability

W847L-090000/A
Perron, Helene
Telephone No. - (819) 994-9148


The Government of Canada has a requirement for the provision of
the Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicle (TAPV) in multiple
configurations/variants. The TAPV is a wheeled combat vehicle
that will fulfill a wide variety of roles on the battlefield,
including but not limited to reconnaissance and surveillance,
security, command and control, cargo and armoured personnel
carrier. It will have a high degree of tactical mobility and
provide a very high degree of survivability to its crew.

The purpose of this Letter of Interest (LOI)/Price and
Availability (P&A) is to solicit information and feedback from
industry regarding possible provision of TAPVs. The information
may be used to support Canada's decision-making process such as
finalizing its requirements and determining its procurement
strategy.

[Matt_Fisher]

BAE Systems will be launching its RG35 (6x6?) armoured vehicle at the DSEI exhibition in London, tomorrow (Sept 8th, 2009) at 0930GMT.

http://www.baesystems.com/DSEi/RG35launch/index.htm
"BAE Systems will be launching and unveiling the first of a new class of vehicle at DSEi.

Manufactured in South Africa, it combines the high levels of survivability of the RG31 Mine Protected Vehicle with much of the tactical capability of a modern combat vehicle. The new platform incorporates a simple but effective one-person turret, which gives an excellent mix of protection and situational awareness."

The picture on the web page is probably not of the RG35 itself, but of BAE's FMTV/General Tactical Vehicle transport truck front end.

I expect that the RG35 will likely be one of the front runners for the TAPV competition.

[Matt_Fisher]

http://www.baesystems.com/Newsroom/N...098810917.html
BAE SYSTEMS DEBUTS NEW GENERATION FIGHTING VEHICLE

08 Sep 2009 | Ref. 167/2009
London, United Kingdom – BAE Systems launched the latest 6x6 addition to the battle-proven RG range at the Defence Systems & Equipment International (DSEi) exhibition today – the RG35 Mine Protected multi-purpose fighting vehicle.
RG35 combines the high levels of survivability of the RG31 Mine Protected Vehicle with much of the tactical capability of a modern combat vehicle.
RG35 incorporates the best of 30 years experience in mobility, protection and sustainability, while meeting current challenges and threats. It meets modern warfare protection requirements, but also offers tactical on- and off-road mobility.
“RG35 offers unprecedented versatility and will be equally suitable in peace support and conventional operations,” said Johan Steyn, Managing Director, BAE Systems Land Systems South Africa. “We continuously develop and enhance our vehicles to support our customers’ operational needs.”
The versatile RG35 can carry light and medium turrets and direct and indirect-fire weapons. It can also be configured in all the variants of a fighting unit (ambulance, weapon carriers, command posts and others) and can be customized in various sizes such as the 4x4 and 6x6, for various missions to meet customer needs.
RG35 is a 6x6 mine protected multi-purpose fighting vehicle 7.4 meters in length, 2.5 meters in width and 2,7 meters in height with a ground clearance of 458 millimeters. The RG35 gross vehicle mass is 33,000kg with a payload of 14,870kg and 15sqm volume under armour. The RG35 has a turning circle of 15m and seats driver plus 15 crew members.


http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/art...any-2009-09-08

New groundbreaking fighting vehicle from SA companyBy: Keith Campbell Published: 08 Sep 09
South Africa's Benoni-based mine-protected and armoured fighting vehicle company, BAE Systems Land Systems OMC, unveiled its latest design, the RG35, at the major British biennial defence exhibition Defence Systems and Equipment International (better known as DSEi) in London on Tuesday.

"We have combined a 4x4 mine-protected vehicle with a modern 8x8 combat vehicle," announced BAE Systems Land Systems South Africa MD Johan Steyn.

"It is groundbreaking. It is a new class of vehicle. The standard model is the 6x6 version. But we plan a family of vehicles, and we will have a 4x4 vehicle."

There is no launch customer for the RG35 yet, but the vehicle is likely to be submitted for the British Army's Light Protected Patrol Vehicle project. The company is confident that its new vehicle will win orders from around the world.

It was the 6x6 standard model that was unveiled in London. Its development is based on expertise gained, on the one hand, from the development of the Ratel and iKlwa armoured vehicles and, on the other, from the development of the RG31 mine-protected vehicle family. The basic V-shaped design of the hull is taken from the RG31.

Advances found in the RG35 include a side-mounted power pack, which can be replaced in just 30 minutes. Traditionally, armoured vehicle power packs have been either at the front or rear of the vehicle.

Furthermore, the vehicle has been designed to accommodate hybrid electric drive, once this becomes available. "It will be very easy to incorporate this drive into this vehicle," says Steyn.

Mounting the power pack on the side creates a large internal volume and the RG35's volume under armour is 15 cubic metres. The vehicle can carry a driver and up to 15 passengers. All critical systems are under armour, which was not the case with previous, mine-protected, vehicles. It has a dual unit air conditioning system, so that, if one unit is lost, the other is still available.

The RG35 has a payload of nearly 15 t. One of the benefits of this is that it makes it easy to attach add-on armour to the vehicle without overloading it. It has been so designed that an additional 120 mm of armour can be added to the hull bottom V, while the hull sides can take 50 mm of additional armour.

The basic version, displayed in London, is fitted with a new generation Overhear Manual Turret - Multiweapon, designed and developed by another unit of the company, Pretoria-based BAE Systems Land Systems Dynamics. However, a wide variety of alternative turrets will be available.

The RG35 will be available in a wide variety of versions, from the basic infantry-carrying combat vehicle, to command post vehicle, engineering vehicle, 120 mm mortar vehicle, anti-aircraft gun vehicle, recovery vehicle, and ambulance.

The 6x6 RG35 is 2,5 m wide, just over 7 m long, and 2,7 m high. It has a trubning circle of 15 m, which is less than that of an RG31.

The company has already produced the hull for the first 4x4 version of the vehicle, and plans to have the prototype 4x4 completed and operational by this time next year.

[MCG]

Hopefully our TAPV requirement stipulates things such as max vehicle length, cross-country mobility & turn radius and not something so specific as only 4x4 is acceptable.

[Matt_Fisher]

More pics of the RG35

Interior and 1-man turret.

[X-mo-1979]

So I have to do recce in a vehicle with a g-dam 4 wheeled truck with a windshield and a rws?Can I get the red paint job option? I would have better effect on a ATV.

I want to see what happens when that hits 16 jugs and 2 AT mines.

I hope the Armd corp complete is going to sit down and figure out our role.And totally change our job.Mobility was lost going to wheel..where do they expect that thing to go?


I am really dissapointed.

Compliment the G-wagon?WTF.

It's fine and dandy if they are going to use recce as recce.However lets face it were going to be Infantry with a smaller vehicle. I.E how we have been used,not in our recce role at all.

[Thucydides]

The problem that I see after re reading post #1 several times is the requirements are for two separate classes of vehicles, hence the weird compromises.

The only way I can see to fulfill the various requirements, be somewhat affordable and "made in Canada" would be to go to one of the various LAV proposals which resembled a "pick up truck", allowing the vehicle to fulfill the logistics and troop lift functions, and provides a space to fit "pods" for the recce function. A sensor suite and spaces for some dismounts inside the pod would be good.

As for the front half, I would suggest it be built "full width" like the front part of the YPR-765. This would provide room for the crew with the turret or RWS to be in the forward 1/3 of the vehicle as some posters desire.

[Infanteer]

A LAV truck?  Seems neat - the Aussies did it with the Bushmaster, which still remains my favorite....

[MCG]

Compliment the G-wagon?WTF.

That means it will replace the G-Wagon in pretty much every theatre of Ops with an enemy threat, but we will not buy enough to completely replace the G-Wagon. The Army will not buy an armoured vehicle for the PRes, so the G-Wagon will remain there.  The G-Wagon will also still be used on domestic operations & perhaps some of the most permissive international operations (maybe Haiti, certainly not Afghanistan or Sudan).

... and finally, because we probably won't buy enough, the G-Wagon may regularly be used as a TAPV training substitute for the regular force.

[X-mo-1979]

That means it will replace the G-Wagon in pretty much every theatre of Ops with an enemy threat, but we will not buy enough to completely replace the G-Wagon. The Army will not buy an armoured vehicle for the PRes, so the G-Wagon will remain there.  The G-Wagon will also still be used on domestic operations & perhaps some of the most permissive international operations (maybe Haiti, certainly not Afghanistan or Sudan).

... and finally, because we probably won't buy enough, the G-Wagon may regularly be used as a TAPV training substitute for the regular force.

Thanks!Kinda what I figured.
I am not impressed with that vehicle at all.Nor is many people I have been talking to.

What ever happened to consulting the people who are going to be using the equipment on the battlefield?

That means it will replace the G-Wagon in pretty much every theatre of Ops with an enemy threat,

So this is not the coyote replacement?I'm a little confused.

[milnews.ca]

Updating the necrothread with this from MERX - sorting out who should even be able to bid (highlights mine):

.... REQUIREMENTS

The Department of National DEFENCE (DND) has a requirement for a fleet of Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicles, with an estimated initial purchase of 500 and an option for up to 100 additional vehicles.  DND also has a requirement for logistics support for the life expectancy of the TAPV, estimated at 25 years.

The TAPV is a wheeled combat vehicle that will fulfill a wide variety of roles on the battlefield. Canada requires one platform, comprised of two variants: the General Utility variant and the Reconnaissance variant. It will have a high degree of tactical mobility and provide a very high degree of survivability to its crew.

PROCUREMENT MILESTONES

The estimated procurement milestones are as follows:

Request for Proposal (RFP) Release        Fall 2010
TAPV Acquisition Contract Award        Fall 2011
TAPV Support Contract Award            Fall 2011
Initial Operating Capability            2013
Completion of TAPV Deliveries            2015

PURPOSE OF SOIQ

The purpose of this SOIQ is to qualify vehicles as well as their Original Equipment Manufacturers through a formal evaluation of selected mandatory technical requirements. Canada encourages a supplier pre-qualification process when complex procurements will likely result in high proposal preparation costs to industry. By using a pre-qualification phase to initiate the procurement process, respondents evaluated as not having sufficient technical capabilities to carry out the project are informed before they undertake the effort and expense of preparing a response to a complete RFP ....

.zip file of Selected Vehicle System Requirements Annex attached, exclusive to Milnet.ca.

[rikomili]

Hello everybody,

I've heard that the Canadian Army wanted to acquire tactical armored patrol vehicles to replace its LAV-II Coyote

and RG 31.

Does anybody know which vehicles are involved in the competition (I guess 4 wheeled vehicles like the M-ATV are) ?

Thanks in advance!

[ArmyRick]

Do a search! This has been discussed to death.

[rikomili]

Sorry sorry,
I know who the main competitors are (ASV 1117, Bushmaster, Dingo 2, RG31 MK6, M-ATV...), but i was wondering whether there were an official list or something like that.

Anyway i'll search by myself if it's not the place to ask that!

[George Wallace]

Try looking in this site:  MERX

[Matt_Fisher]

TAPV dedicated thread
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,87547.0.html

Mods, maybe this topic should be locked, or merged into the thread above.

[Matt_Fisher]

Looks like the TAPV is likely to be armed with a CASW equipped remote weapon station:
http://communities.canada.com/ottawacitizen/blogs/defencewatch/default.aspx

Delays in the CASW procurement are likely to in turn delay acquisition of TAPV until it can be announced what the winning CASW submission is so that the TAPV bidders can develop an RWS to work with it.