Author Topic: Capt. Robert Semrau Charged With Murder in Afghanistan  (Read 107509 times)

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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Canadian Captain charged with second-degree murder in Afghanistan
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2009, 15:52:39 »
Speculation should be kept to a minimum. We don't have all the facts, and we are not investigators. Maybe some folk at CBC and "analysts" should keep that in mind before spouting their anti-military rhetoric.

I wouldn't want to be in the investigator's shoes.

+1.

This is obviously a very sensitive and difficult matter and I won't call into question the professionalism of the NIS as many are apt to on the news commentary.  Let us do are part here by keeping the chatter to a minimum as this proceeds - lord knows the loud banging of the news headlines shakes the foundations of "innocent until proven guilty".

On another note, I know this man personally and was quite shocked to see this.  He is a experienced and respected soldier and a true professional.  I hope this can be resolved effectively in a timely fashion.
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Offline Jim Seggie

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Re: Canadian Captain charged with second-degree murder in Afghanistan
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2009, 15:54:28 »
Innocent until proven guilty. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms assures that, I presume.
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Re: Canadian Captain charged with second-degree murder in Afghanistan
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2009, 16:02:55 »
On another note, I know this man personally and was quite shocked to see this.  He is a experienced and respected soldier and a true professional.  I hope this can be resolved effectively in a timely fashion.

The damage to his reputation is already done, with the release of his name to the media.

Innocent until proven guilty. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms assures that, I presume.


Charter CH 11
Quote
11. Any person charged with an offence has the right

    a) to be informed without unreasonable delay of the specific offence;
    b) to be tried within a reasonable time;
    c) not to be compelled to be a witness in proceedings against that person in respect of the offence;
    d) to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal;
    e) not to be denied reasonable bail without just cause;
    f) except in the case of an offence under military law tried before a military tribunal, to the benefit of trial by jury where the maximum punishment for the offence is imprisonment for five years or a more severe punishment;
    g) not to be found guilty on account of any act or omission unless, at the time of the act or omission, it constituted an offence under Canadian or international law or was criminal according to the general principles of law recognized by the community of nations;
    h) if finally acquitted of the offence, not to be tried for it again and, if finally found guilty and punished for the offence, not to be tried or punished for it again; and
    i) if found guilty of the offence and if the punishment for the offence has been varied between the time of commission and the time of sentencing, to the benefit of the lesser punishment.
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Canadian Captain charged with second-degree murder in Afghanistan
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2009, 16:37:40 »
I hope the truth comes out, but I marvel love how investigators and lawyers, insulated from everything in life more dangerous than their morning commutes, are able to second-guess split-second battlefield decisions months after the fact.

With no perspective on how the investigation took place or what it uncovered this is exactly the type of statement I was referring to with my previous post.  For the sake of all involved, keep these types of comments to yourself and let the particulars do the talking.
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Offline Spandrel

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Re: Canadian Captain charged with second-degree murder in Afghanistan
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2009, 16:51:05 »
This should be interesting...  proceed in a transparent manner.

I've no dog in this fight.  Your comment was unneccessarily speculative and added nothing.  I've removed it.

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Offline Baden Guy

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Re: Canadian Captain charged with second-degree murder in Afghanistan
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2009, 17:11:02 »
Canadian soldier charged in Afghan death
 Article  Video  Comments   JANE ARMSTRONG

The Globe and Mail

January 2, 2009 at 12:13 PM EST

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan — A Canadian soldier has been charged with second-degree murder in connection with the shooting death of an unarmed Afghan man last fall, military police said Friday.

Captain Robert Semrau is a member of a team of Canadian Forces mentors, which trains members of the fledgling Afghan National Army.

“He is accused of shooting, with intent to kill, an unarmed male person,” according to a written statement from the Canadian Forces National Investigation Service (NIS), the major crimes unit of Canada's military police.


More at link plus video of interview.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090102.wsemrau0102/BNStory/International/home
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Re: Canadian Captain charged with second-degree murder in Afghanistan
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2009, 18:03:48 »
I'm sensing a palpable hostility to the media that I don't understand. What exactly have they done wrong here?

Isn't it completely normal to identify an accused murderer?

Offline X-mo-1979

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Re: Canadian Captain charged with second-degree murder in Afghanistan
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2009, 18:12:29 »
I'm sensing a palpable hostility to the media that I don't understand. What exactly have they done wrong here?

Isn't it completely normal to identify an accused murderer?

My anger towards the media is not due to this reporting.Its due to the next story being about the possiability of Canadian forces members may be trafficing drugs....maybe.Just seems like we are going to slip into the dark days of before and nothing but negative media again.CTV lost my respect with the DRUG alligations,not this.

Offline GDawg

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Re: Canadian Captain charged with second-degree murder in Afghanistan
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2009, 18:14:32 »
I'm sensing a palpable hostility to the media that I don't understand. What exactly have they done wrong here?

Isn't it completely normal to identify an accused murderer?

I believe the hostility isn't directed at the media, but rather the commentary allowed on many MSM news sites. The G&M tends to close the comment boards when things get too out of hand, but the CBC "jump to conclusions mat" is still up and running last I checked. I question the utility of allowing the public to leave commentary after news articles. I feel that this new trend was intended to supplement or mimic the editorial page of print newspapers, but with newspapers they tend not to print the vitriolic, ignorant, or libelous statements that are common on the online MSM news comment boards.
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Offline Bo

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Re: Canadian Captain charged with second-degree murder in Afghanistan
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2009, 18:18:45 »
I did basic training with Capt Semrau.

I cannot say enough good things about this guy. He always kept the morale high in our platoon, a natural leader. Everyone liked him.

He was a very balanced, intelligent, and keen individual. When I think of the one guy in our platoon that could be a general one day, it's him. The media might make him seem like a ruthless murderer but that couldn't be further from the truth. I'm certain once more information is revealed that these charges will be dropped.

I am still somewhat in shock that Rob, of all people, is being accused of this.
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Offline tech2002

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Re: Canadian Captain charged with second-degree murder in Afghanistan
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2009, 18:23:31 »
ooo man, I am in shock  :o, this remind me almost similar case from 2002 of Canadian Forces Sniper Cpl. Furlong.. I don`t know what to say much anymore..

Offline bjr

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Re: Canadian Captain charged with second-degree murder in Afghanistan
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2009, 18:27:22 »
Does anyone know where Capt. Semrau is based out of?

Also, I think we should remember that Capt. Semrau could be innocent AND the NIS staff could have been completely professional and above-board in performing their job. The possibilities are not mutually exclusive, because investigators are not judges or juries and don't use the same standard of proof. The job of investigators is not to reach a conclusion on guilt or innocence, it is to lay a charge when there is sufficient evidence to support the charge. And if military prosecutors use the same policy as civilian prosecutors (which I'm sure they do), it is their job to proceed with charges when there is a "reasonable possibility of conviction," NOT when they personally feel the accused is guilty. It is not logically inconsistent for an investigator to be acting in good faith and for a person charged to be innocent.

People seem to get caught up in the fact that charges have been laid. Just as in real life, it is pointless to speculate until the evidence comes out in court. There are a million possibilities. As one (completely hypothetical) example, there may have been evidence from witnesses that was sufficient for the NIS investigators to lay charges, but these witnesses might turn out to be completely unreliable. There might be one "side of the story" that paints a reasonable case for, say, a killing in self-defence, but another version of events that doesn't. In such a case it isn't the investigators' job to decide who they believe unless one version of events is unbelievable. They have to lay the charge and put the issue before the court.

So to make a long story short, there are two sides to every story, and we have to trust that the facts will come out eventually. This will no doubt be a crappy next couple of years for Capt. Semrau, though. Hopefully the defence lawyers and prosecutors both do their jobs.

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Re: Canadian Captain charged with second-degree murder in Afghanistan
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2009, 18:38:25 »
Good summary, bjr.

Let's all wait and see what develops in the fullness of time. In the meantime, he is innocent in the eyes of the law.

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Re: Canadian Captain charged with second-degree murder in Afghanistan
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2009, 19:01:38 »
I'm sensing a palpable hostility to the media that I don't understand. What exactly have they done wrong here?

The media have a way to sensationalise things, and twist and manipulate the truth to suit them through controversy, and a one sided biased opinion in this unpopular war, all for ratings and sales.

I  have a very bad taste in my mouth when it comes to media period, all through experience.

Meanwhile, until the truth comes out in the wash through a proper investigation and then should this escalate to appropiate court proceedings, I'll stick to the facts at hand thru DND press releases, and continue to take whatever the media says as nothing but scribble on a shytehouse wall, for 999/1000, thats all they are worth.

CBC War Correspondant, actor and famous Canadian, Lorne Green would roll over in his grave, if could see the tactics used by the current CBC and their ilk. What they do is not really reporting anymore.

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« Last Edit: January 02, 2009, 19:11:06 by Overwatch Downunder »
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Offline TheCheez

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Re: Canadian Captain charged with second-degree murder in Afghanistan
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2009, 19:06:32 »
So far the print media has been fairly restrained but I did have the misfortune of seeing a Ret'd Col on CTV trip all over himself trying to give them a good soundbyte and story to run with.

I hope for everyone the facts come out and and it's a positive ending.

Offline NL_engineer

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Re: Canadian Captain charged with second-degree murder in Afghanistan
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2009, 19:28:03 »
I wonder is prosecuting the Capt in the best interests of the Crown.  Let alone the fact that all witnesses will have to be flown to Canada, and put up in Ottawa at Crown expense etc (I am guessing most of the witnesses would be ANA/OMLT members).

Yes I know these accusations are serious, but now that the MSM found its way in they will want a trial, and not be happy if the NIS says that there isn't enough evidence to go to trial.

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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Canadian Captain charged with second-degree murder in Afghanistan
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2009, 19:42:20 »
I wonder is prosecuting the Capt in the best interests of the Crown.  Let alone the fact that all witnesses will have to be flown to Canada, and put up in Ottawa at Crown expense etc (I am guessing most of the witnesses would be ANA/OMLT members).

Yes I know these accusations are serious, but now that the MSM found its way in they will want a trial, and not be happy if the NIS says that there isn't enough evidence to go to trial.

It is a moot point.

This will be no different from any other Courts Martial/Trial that has been conducted by the CF in the past, which has included bringing people back from Afghanistan, and more distant corners of the globe. 
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Re: Canadian Captain charged with second-degree murder in Afghanistan
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2009, 19:56:11 »
The accusations and specualtions begin.....


Two-month lag in Afghanistan murder charge raises questions

By Sue Bailey, The Canadian Press


OTTAWA - Tough questions are being asked about how a military force that learned the dark lessons of Somalia could have taken more than two months to reveal details of a suspected murder in Afghanistan.


News that Capt. Robert Semrau has been charged with second-degree murder in the death of a presumed enemy fighter made shocking headlines Friday.


"The biggest concern is the delay," says lawyer Paul Champ, a human rights specialist.


"The allegations are that a Canadian officer - a mentor, at that - shot an unarmed man over two months ago. And we don't have any information about why it took so long for that allegation to come forward or be investigated.


"That has to be the gravest concern which most closely parallels Somalia."


Champ cited similar reporting delays in the 1993 beating death of Somali teenager Shidane Arone by members of the Canadian Airborne Regiment.


"There was also a delay in the investigation by military police in what was clearly a brutal murder."


Retired military officers bristled at such comparisons and stressed that Semrau is innocent until proven guilty.


He is accused of shooting, "with intent to kill," an unarmed man in Helmand province "on or about" last October 19. Afghan soldiers, their Canadian mentors and British troops had defended the capital of Lashkar Gah from insurgent attack, retaking the Nad Ali district after a three-day fight ending Oct. 18.


Afghan and NATO officials said at the time that at least 100 Taliban died in the fighting.


Semrau is a member of the Operational Mentor and Liaison Team, the Canadian military unit that guides the fledgling Afghan National Army.


Champ, who has led Amnesty International's legal bid to extend human-rights protections to detainees handed to Afghan security forces by Canadian troops, says the murder charge raises disturbing questions.


"Was this individual being held in custody when he was killed?


"Very little is disclosed by the military. And when we see an incident like this, it highlights why transparency is so important."


Steven Staples of the independent Rideau Institute, which focuses on defence and foreign policy, echoed that concern.


"We've been repeatedly assured that processes have been put in place that would ensure we would not have a repeat of Somalia," he said in an interview.


"I think Canadians harbour a fear that as we get more drawn into Afghanistan that we could have a repeat of that terrible situation."

Staples questioned the timeline described Wednesday in which Col. Jamie Cade, acting commander of Task Force Afghanistan, said he learned of the death on Dec. 27 - just after Defence Minister Peter MacKay left Kandahar following a Christmas visit.

"The question will be asked whether it was merely a coincidence that the timing of the investigation spared the minister from having to respond to reporters' questions about the incident."

It took several weeks for the Canadian public to learn what happened in Somalia, where Canadian soldiers were deployed on peacekeeping duties.

The affair damaged the credibility of the Canadian Forces and prompted the federal government to order a public inquiry. Despite the fact it was cut short by the government, the inquiry found problems in the military's leadership.

Retired Col. Chris Corrigan of the Royal Canadian Military Institute says the military has changed since Somalia.

"Continuing the belief that there's a coverup just astounds me - that people are still propagating this sort of stuff. The system totally changed as a result of Somalia and the commission" of inquiry.

Those changes included the creation of the national investigation service, a more defined separation between military prosecution and the chain of command, and what was supposed to be a more transparent public reporting system.

Critics note that the military has clamped down on public requests involving Afghanistan through the Access to Information Act.

Corrigan says justice must be allowed to run its course as the facts of the case come to light.

"That Canadian soldier has a right as well to being protected by our legal system."

Corrigan says he can see why it took two and a half months for the allegations to surface.

"There have been a lot of inquiries, a lot of investigations going on during this timeframe that involved our own people dying. So I can fully understand why this may not have risen to the top of the command chain in Afghanistan. They were dealing with other life and death issues."




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Offline GAP

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Re: Canadian Captain charged with second-degree murder in Afghanistan
« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2009, 19:57:50 »
Intersting, but on the way home I was listening to As it Happens on CBC....they were very low key on his arrest and seemed to question the fact that the investigation was very short, and that he was not charged until a day after the MND and CDS left.
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Re: Canadian Captain charged with second-degree murder in Afghanistan
« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2009, 20:41:56 »
Wait'll Monday, when the newsrooms'll be back at closer-to-full staffing...
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Re: Canadian Captain charged with second-degree murder in Afghanistan
« Reply #45 on: January 02, 2009, 20:46:11 »
Just watching Global national news. I was wondering how long it would take for them to bring up Somalia and they did not disapoint. Video of the mission complete with the pictures of Brown and Matchee posing with Arone.

Mr. Staples as usual crying "coverup"
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Offline geo

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Re: Canadian Captain charged with second-degree murder in Afghanistan
« Reply #46 on: January 02, 2009, 21:18:15 »
I wonder is prosecuting the Capt in the best interests of the Crown.  Let alone the fact that all witnesses will have to be flown to Canada, and put up in Ottawa at Crown expense etc (I am guessing most of the witnesses would be ANA/OMLT members).

Yes I know these accusations are serious, but now that the MSM found its way in they will want a trial, and not be happy if the NIS says that there isn't enough evidence to go to trial.

Why would the CFNIS investigation be conducted in Ottawa ???
It happened in Afghanistan and all the witnesses are over there - therefore, the investigation will/should be conducted over there
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Re: Canadian Captain charged with second-degree murder in Afghanistan
« Reply #47 on: January 02, 2009, 21:20:29 »
Col (ret) Drapeau said on the CBC that the CFNIS is not objective enough to investigate this and that it should be turned over to the RCMP.

In the same report, Amnesty International says that Canada has a long history of covering up events overseas..........

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Re: Canadian Captain charged with second-degree murder in Afghanistan
« Reply #48 on: January 02, 2009, 21:21:53 »
geo maybe because of this statement

News Release
Charge Laid Relating to Death of Presumed Insurgent
CFNIS 2009-01 - January 2, 2009


OTTAWA – The Canadian Forces National Investigation Service (CFNIS) has charged one military officer late yesterday with an offence relating to the death of a presumed insurgent in Helmand Province on or about October 19, 2008.

Captain Robert Semrau was charged with one count of second-degree murder, contrary to Section 130 of the National Defence Act, pursuant to Section 235(1) of the Criminal Code. Captain Semrau was a member of the Operational Mentor and Liaison Team at the time of the incident. He is accused of shooting, with intent to kill, an unarmed male person. Captain Semrau is currently in Military Police custody and will be transported back to Canada shortly for a hearing before a military judge to determine whether he is to be retained in custody.

The Commander Task Force Kandahar was made aware of the allegations on December 27, 2008 and notified the CFNIS who immediately initiated an investigation. The CFNIS laid the charge after analyzing the evidence and interviewing witnesses. As the matter is now proceeding in accordance with the Code of Service Discipline, and another part of the investigation is still ongoing, it would be inappropriate to comment further at this time.

The CFNIS is an independent Military Police unit with a mandate to investigate serious and sensitive matters in relation to National Defence property, Departmental employees and Canadian Forces personnel serving in Canada and abroad.

- 30 -

For more information about the CFNIS, go to http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/view-news-afficher-nouvelles-eng.asp?id=2824


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Re: Canadian Captain charged with second-degree murder in Afghanistan
« Reply #49 on: January 02, 2009, 21:31:48 »
Amnesty International has a long history of being full of... ::)

That may be your opinion, but this forum is not the place for unnecessary and potentially libelous statements about neutral international organizations.

Post removed, back on track, please.


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