Author Topic: Medium Support Vehicle System  (Read 32599 times)

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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Medium Support Vehicle System
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2012, 11:39:13 »
And from today's Chronicly Horrible, a good indication that the cancellation was very out of the blue for everyone:

Quote
At a defence conference in Calgary last Tuesday, I attended a presentation by Jake Jacobson, the chief of staff (materiel) at DND. His seminar was entitled, Defence Procurement Works.

The gist of his message was that the media just don't get it. To emphasize just how swimmingly things were going, Jacobson referred to the fact that in a little over 24 hours, the bids were closing on the standard-military-pattern truck competition. He said it was another good news story that would not get any media coverage.

Enjoy your retirement, Jake.

Scott Taylor is editor of Esprit de Corps.


Full article: http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/117638-taylor-politicians-pass-buck-while-bureaucrats-don-t-acknowledge-problems
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Offline Hurricane

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Re: Medium Support Vehicle System
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2012, 12:03:09 »
It's not the actual vehicle, but the fact that the project rolled all mobility capabilities into a single project.  We insist on a small project to replace capability A1 with project X, and another project to replace capability A2 with project Y, which is completely different.  Meanwhile, a third project to replace capability A3 falls through, so we are forced to use X, Y, and A3, creating 3 times the requirement for parts, trained maintainers and operators, etc, etc.

I would be very convenient if we were to have a similar platform for multiple roles. IE. Same design just on a smaller/larger scale depending on the usage. Much like the new Ford Police Interceptor where both the Sedan and SUV version are virtually identical when it comes to drivetrain and suspension. Just to use the HLVW and SHLVW as an example. Same components, just one has a larger engine and upgraded transfer case, and minor suspension differences. But as far as electrical, body, and everyday driving they are identical.

Something that would be ideal, however I would think unfeasible would be to have the same company produce all of our SMP fleet, at least for the logistic vehicles. Fighting vehicles are obviously role defined. Not to say they are the best choice or not,  but I will use Oshkosh for an example. The Americans have Oshkosh heavy lift, medium lift, the MRAP, and I'm sure a few others I do not know about.

Would the treasury board like that? Heck no. Will it ever happen, probably not. Is it possible to merge 2 or 3 vehicle requirements into one MREX bid?

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Medium Support Vehicle System
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2012, 12:27:39 »
Is it possible to merge 2 or 3 vehicle requirements into one MREX bid?

Probably not possible with the way our current procurement system works. Though, it would be a great solution to have common parts across various vehicle types and cost-effective for our comparatively small force.

Offline Infanteer

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Re: Medium Support Vehicle System
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2012, 12:28:13 »
How about something like this.  It could potentially replace the:

1.  Coyote/TAPV
2.  RG-31/TAPV
3.  MLVW
4.  LSVW
5.  Bison CP
6.  Husky MRT
7.  Bison Amb
8.  EROC vehicle suite

There is even a "jeep" version as a utility vehicle.

Too bad it lost out in the TAPV project.
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Offline Hurricane

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Re: Medium Support Vehicle System
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2012, 13:22:54 »
Probably not possible with the way our current procurement system works. Though, it would be a great solution to have common parts across various vehicle types and cost-effective for our comparatively small force.

No doubt, as well as minimal cross training for Vehicle Tech's on the various versions of the vehicles.

Offline Hurricane

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Re: Medium Support Vehicle System
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2012, 13:47:48 »
How about something like this.  It could potentially replace the:

1.  Coyote/TAPV
2.  RG-31/TAPV
3.  MLVW
4.  LSVW
5.  Bison CP
6.  Husky MRT
7.  Bison Amb
8.  EROC vehicle suite

There is even a "jeep" version as a utility vehicle.

Too bad it lost out in the TAPV project.

The only one of those vehicles I would have to disagree on is the MLVW. It would need a slightly longer cargo bed, after all the ML is a Logistics vehicle. From the looks of that, it could only carry 4 full sized pallats. If there was a dual rear axle variant with an extended cargo bed, that would be ideal for the MLVW replacement.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Medium Support Vehicle System
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2012, 14:17:35 »
I have heard that the Bushmaster did not do as well as expected. For the role intended why not just tag onto this production run. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/FMTV-2010-2015-Oshkosh-Wins-The-Re-Compete-05744/

Online Kirkhill

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Offline Thucydides

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Re: Medium Support Vehicle System
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2012, 15:17:18 »
Well since the MLVW replacement has been put off, I suppose we can "blue sky" a bit. Here is an idea I raised a while ago using the SEP serial electric vehicle as inspiration. Notice we could get modularity, commonality, production line economies of scale and even armour protection going this way.

Even without the serial electric drive, a variation of the idea may still be possible. Uprated motors using turbochargers for the heavier versions, and perhaps some form of hydrophumatic suspension to adapt to different platform size/loading would provide a wide range of vehicles from a basic set of building blocks.
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Offline MCG

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Re: Medium Support Vehicle System
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2012, 11:05:12 »
At the very least, while waiting to get the SMP project back on rails, we can provide a name to the MilCOTS truck delivered already.  Since the second "S" in the project name was supposed to reflect that we were buying both trucks an ancilary equipment, by refering to the actual truck as "MSVS" we look like fools who neither understand meanings behind words nor remember why we chose those words when projects finally deliver.

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Medium Support Vehicle System
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2012, 11:39:08 »
Merely calling the truck an MSVS makes us "look like fools"? You're ovulating, aren't you.   ;)

Offline MrGnr

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Re: Medium Support Vehicle System
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2012, 11:53:09 »
At the very least, while waiting to get the SMP project back on rails, we can provide a name to the MilCOTS truck delivered already.  Since the second "S" in the project name was supposed to reflect that we were buying both trucks an ancilary equipment, by refering to the actual truck as "MSVS" we look like fools who neither understand meanings behind words nor remember why we chose those words when projects finally deliver.

M – medium – 2 >10 Tonnes
S – support – B vehicle used for support
V- vehicle – nuff said
S – system - A group of interacting, interrelated, or interdependent elements forming a complex whole.(The free dictionary.com)

SMP – I think we know that one

I don’t see the problem.  ;D

Offline cupper

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Re: Medium Support Vehicle System
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2012, 22:52:22 »
M – medium – 2 >10 Tonnes
S – support – B vehicle used for support
V- vehicle – nuff said
S – system - A group of interacting, interrelated, or interdependent elements forming a complex whole.(The free dictionary.com)

SMP – I think we know that one

I don’t see the problem.  ;D

But since a vehicle is a group of interdependent, interrelated and interacting components which form a more complex whole, isn't the second "S" redundant?  >:D
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Medium Support Vehicle System
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2012, 11:17:42 »
A purchase that does not include the word "system" is not sexy enough, one must have the required number of buzzwords in the power point presentation to be noticed.

Online Kirkhill

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Re: Medium Support Vehicle System
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2012, 20:04:53 »
Quote
The Conservative government shut down a project to buy new army trucks because the Defence Department tried to spend more than $300 million without permission, government, military and industry officials have told the Ottawa Citizen.
 

Link

McG has a useful point.

Now, with the programme 300 MCAD over budget, the programme can be folded and the SMP requirement blended into the LVM programme and relaunched as the LVM(M) to go along with the LVM (H) and LVM (L) programmes.

By the way... who decided there was enough change in the kitty to buy extra 500 MSVS-MilCOTS in the early stages of this project?
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Medium Support Vehicle System
« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2012, 20:31:08 »
Link

McG has a useful point.

Now, with the programme 300 MCAD over budget, the programme can be folded and the SMP requirement blended into the LVM programme and relaunched as the LVM(M) to go along with the LVM (H) and LVM (L) programmes.

By the way... who decided there was enough change in the kitty to buy extra 500 MSVS-MilCOTS in the early stages of this project?

There are two issues here:  Budgeted funds (department says "Hey, we've got money") vs expenditure authority (Government says "You can spend this much.")

So, my understanding is that the department identified more money to spend to buy more MilCOTS, and went back to Government to get increased expenditure authority.  All is good - the money DND has earmarked is the same amount that the Government has approved to spend.

Now, for the SMP, over time, more requirements have been added - borrowing money from other projects (the department therefore has the money).  However, the overall expenditure authority had not been raised - no one went formally back to Government to get it increased.

That's where the problem comes in - Government has only approved so much money for all the elements of the MSVS program (MilCOTS, SMP, shelters, project management).  The proposed acquisition would have been within the funds DND has budgeted, but not within the amount Government had approved.

I think this is a case of poor sequencing - the proper sequence would have been to go back to Government, get approval for the increase in expenditure, then go out to industry.
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Medium Support Vehicle System
« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2012, 20:35:27 »
So, it's like saying ADM Mat never got their Section 32 for existing money....
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Medium Support Vehicle System
« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2012, 20:38:52 »
So, it's like saying ADM Mat never got their Section 32 for existing money....

Not quite, but close enough.

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Offline AmmoTech90

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Re: Medium Support Vehicle System
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2012, 20:40:41 »
So, if DND had identified that it had, what, around 800 million to spend (not withstanding it did not have authority to spend that much), and it can now not spend it, can DND now turn that 800 million back in as a good chunk of the savings required by SR and DRAP?
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Medium Support Vehicle System
« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2012, 20:46:44 »
So, if DND had identified that it had, what, around 800 million to spend (not withstanding it did not have authority to spend that much), and it can now not spend it, can DND now turn that 800 million back in as a good chunk of the savings required by SR and DRAP?

Probably not. SR/DRAP etc are recurring savings, not one time.  They're also supposed to be vote 1 (operations and maintenance) not vote 5 (Capital).

Finally, some DND projects are now funded through accrual funding, which makes it easier ("easier" in government terms) to shift funds to later fiscal years for the same project.

Even if it was being funded through DND's baseline vote 5, keep in mind that it would not have been spent this year, but over the next several years.  So other projects can be rejigged within the larger plan, moving some forward to take advantage of the funding that MSVS won't be spending in those years.
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Offline AmmoTech90

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Re: Medium Support Vehicle System
« Reply #45 on: July 19, 2012, 21:12:20 »
Noted, should have put the joking/sarcasm smiley in.

May be we can rejig it in the larger plan to support the system of supporting medium vehicles (the SSMV project).
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Offline milnews.ca

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Re: Medium Support Vehicle System
« Reply #46 on: January 04, 2013, 04:07:34 »
And the MSVS SMP has been stopped...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-slams-the-brakes-on-plan-to-buy-new-military-trucks/article4408849/

This from MERX:
Quote
.... In order to ensure a successful procurement of the Standard Military Pattern (SMP) component of the Medium Support Vehicle System (MSVS), Canada wishes to provide Industry with an opportunity to participate in a consultation process as part of this re-solicitation. The information received during these
exchanges will help Public Works and Government Services Canada (PWGSC), the Department of National DEFENCE (DND) and Industry Canada (IC) to validate the SMP Vehicles procurement approach.

The consultation process will begin with one-on-one meetings with industry. The main objective of the one-on-one meetings is to validate certain aspects of the SMP procurement approach outlined in RFP #W8476-06MSMP/J (issued in December 2011) and to provide an opportunity for Industry to meet with government representatives to discuss their views. Any solutions, ideas or issues raised during the one-on-one meetings or during any other additional sessions will be analyzed for further consideration by Canada ....

Agreement (including "don't talk to media") folks have to sign is attached.

The latest MSVS project page doesn't seem to be caught up at this point.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 05:45:45 by milnews.ca »
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Offline milnews.ca

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Re: Medium Support Vehicle System
« Reply #47 on: January 04, 2013, 11:37:21 »
The Canadian Press' version:
Quote
The federal government is set to jump-start its stalled, multimillion-dollar program to replace the military's aging truck fleet.

The Public Works Department is scheduling a series of meetings later this month with companies vying for a contract for 1,500 new medium-sized logistics trucks for the Canadian Forces.

A notice posted on a government contracts website says the meetings are meant to help Public Works "validate" its approach to the long-delayed truck purchase.

The government abruptly cancelled the truck contract last summer, three minutes before the deadline for bids.

An email to bidders blamed "economic, marketplace and budgetary circumstances" for the cancellation ....
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Offline milnews.ca

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Re: Medium Support Vehicle System
« Reply #48 on: January 04, 2013, 19:40:55 »
Finally, the PWGSC Info-machine's version:
Quote
The Honourable Rona Ambrose, Minister of Public Works and Government Services and Minister for Status of Women, and the Honourable Bernard Valcourt, Associate Minister of National Defence and Minister of State (Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency) (La Francophonie), are pleased to announce the launch of an industry consultation process for the Standard Military Pattern (SMP) component of the Medium Support Vehicle System (MSVS) project.

“Engaging industry is part of our smart procurement approach and the new way forward,” said Minister Ambrose. “In working closely with industry, our Government will ensure the best value for Canadian taxpayers, while providing the Canadian Armed Forces with the equipment and capability they need to do their jobs.”

Public Works and Government Services Canada, in consultation with the Department of National Defence, today issued an invitation to industry to take part in a consultation process as part of the re-issuance of the SMP Request for Proposals. It is anticipated that the one-on-one consultation meetings will take place between January 17 and January 22 in the National Capital Region. The Letter of Interest inviting industry to participate in the consultation process is now available on MERX.

“Our Government believes it is important to ensure our men and women in uniform have the right equipment to do the difficult and dangerous job we ask of them,” said Minister Valcourt. “The new fleet of trucks represents an important investment to rebuild the Canadian Armed Forces’ ability to provide lift and logistical support on the ground.”

Public Works and Government Services Canada, on behalf of the Department of National Defence, is purchasing a fleet of medium-sized trucks and associated logistics to replace and modernize the current medium-sized logistics trucks. The SMP requirement is a complex procurement including both the acquisition of five variants of the vehicle and associated equipment as well as in-service support for the life of the vehicles ....
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Medium Support Vehicle System
« Reply #49 on: January 04, 2013, 19:57:11 »
Can't wait for the new trucks in 2025 when all that we have left of the MLVWs are the tires on rusted out rims.