Author Topic: Bosnia and Kosovo: More Pomeranian grenadiers needed as peacekeepers?  (Read 16717 times)

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Offline geo

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Re: Bosnia and Kosovo: More Pomeranian grenadiers needed as peacekeepers?
« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2008, 09:33:41 »
Is that with or without the torched US Embassy in Serbia?
Also - remember, the Russians are backing the Serbs... I think that things are as messy as they appear to be.
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And back again..... what a ride!

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Re: Bosnia and Kosovo: More Pomeranian grenadiers needed as peacekeepers?
« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2008, 10:52:50 »
The one thing that no one is mentioning here is that this is all contrary to the UN Mandate in Kosovo.  The US and UK have decided to ignore the UN and support a mission that is not backed by the majority of the UN (boy, this sounds very much like.......like........Iraq).  Therefore the UN mission will be pulling out leaving the 20 members of the next coalition of the willing to break their promises and extract themselves a few years down the road when things get to tough.  Lets hope Canada is not there at the that time!

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Bosnia and Kosovo: More Pomeranian grenadiers needed as peacekeepers?
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2008, 14:21:47 »
UN Security Council Resolution 1244 has governed Kosovars since its inception, 8 years ago. It was up to the UN to figure out how to go forward. During that time nothing happened. The Albanian majority took it upon themselves to resolve the impass by declaring independence. Everyone knew the Albanian Kosovars were gioing to take this step. Kosovo as an entity isnt viable it needs to be part of either Serbia or Albania not some limbo.Its unfortunate that the Bush administration decided to rush recognition without thinking through the consequences. Russia is going to side with the Serbs and this puts the Kremlin and Washington on a collision course that is avoidable. The only question is what will be the cost war in Kosovo or Russian interference in the ME or helping Iran further its nuclear weapons program. The latter certainly cant be good for Russia's long term interests. Putin will make Washington pay a price and its one that we could have avoided simply by not recognizing Kosovar independence.

fraserdw

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Re: Bosnia and Kosovo: More Pomeranian grenadiers needed as peacekeepers?
« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2008, 17:29:14 »
I think this is the true legacy of peace-making with peace-keepers.  In effect we use UN troops to take territory away from a nation without any "Marshall Plan" for after the war.  After a decade of occupation the UN, US and Europa were happy with a solution, any solution.  We have not then and not since addressed the root causes of the fears at the base of these societies.  They are all dirt poor post communist states where deceit was a way of life and no one has grown up with any real values or resepct for anything of any importance so they stick to tribalism as if it was a religion.  The real solution would be to divide the the whole of the former Yugo into about 250 states each with a Europa security force to protect it from it's neighbours and then to transfer 7 million European jobs there so they something do besides burn each other out.  The upside is that the European armaments industry now has a new client!!!!

Offline MarkOttawa

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Is the unraveling beginning?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080317/ts_afp/serbiakosovoununrest

Quote
KOSOVSKA MITROVICA (AFP) - UN police were forced to withdraw Monday from the Serb-populated part of this flashpoint Kosovo town after coming under attack as they stormed a court occupied by Serbs opposed to independence.

More than 100 people, including 63 international security force members, were hurt amid gunfire and a suspected grenade blast after they moved in to regain control of the UN-run tribunal in the northern town of Kosovska Mitrovica, police officials said...

"The police are pulling out of northern Mitrovica," said an official from the Kosovo police mission of the United Nations [supposed to be replaced by EU police; I wonder if they'll arrive as scheduled - MC],
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/20/kosovo.serbia1
who spoke to AFP on condition of anonymity.

But Kosovo's NATO-led KFOR peacekeepers have remained in the tense town.
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL1741937520080317

The French army chief of staff said in Paris that 20 French soldiers serving with KFOR were among the wounded, eight of them seriously, but none of them were in critical condition.

"NATO condemns, in the strongest terms, violence that we have seen today. NATO will respond firmly to ensure a safe and secure environment," NATO spokesman James Appathurai said in Brussels.
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsMaps/idUSL2773388720080227

The use of weapons makes the violence the worst to have flared in Kosovo since its ethnic Albanian-dominated parliament unilaterally declared independence from Serbia on February 17...

Northern Kosovo has a 40,000-strong Serb population who are divided from the mainly ethnic Albanian south by the Ibar River, which passes through Mitrovica.

The clashes came on the four-year anniversary of the March 2004 anti-Serb riots by ethnic Albanians in which 19 people were killed and dozens of medieval Serbian Orthodox churches and monasteries were destroyed or damaged.

Kosovo's independence has been recognised by many Western countries but Serbia and Kosovo Serbs -- backed by Russia -- have vehemently rejected the move as illegal.

Serbian President Boris Tadic warned UN and NATO forces against any "excessive reaction" that could spark a further "escalation."

Outgoing Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica condemned the "use of force" and said Serbia had "begun consultations with Russia over necessary mutual reaction in order to halt all violence against the Serbs. [emphasis added]"..

Mark
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And Canada throws its hat into the recognition ring....

Canada Joins International Recognition of Kosovo
DFAIT news release No. 59, 18 Mar 08

The Honourable Maxime Bernier, Minister of Foreign Affairs, today announced Canada’s decision to recognize Kosovo. Minister Bernier issued the following statement:

“We note that a significant number of countries, including our G7 partners and many of Canada’s close allies, have already recognized Kosovo.

“Kosovo is a unique case, as illustrated by its recent history characterized by war and ethnic cleansing, the role subsequently played by the United Nations and NATO in administering the territory and providing for its security, and the ongoing role that international organizations such as the European Union will play in assisting Kosovo with its transition to full independence.

“As the declaration issued by Kosovo's parliament also makes clear, the unique circumstances which have led to Kosovo's independence mean it does not constitute any kind of precedent. Statements made by other countries recognizing Kosovo's independence have echoed this point.

“We welcome the commitment made by Kosovo to ensure the protection of the rights of Serbian and other minorities, including their right to safety. Canada also welcomes Kosovo’s commitment to ensure the protection of religious and cultural heritage sites. Canada attaches great importance to the full implementation of these and other commitments, undertaken by Kosovo’s leaders in line with the recommendations of UN Special Envoy Martti Ahtisaari.

“The development of Kosovo into a democratic, multi-ethnic state that fully respects human rights is essential for peace, political stability and economic progress in the Balkans.

“In this context, Canada acknowledges this new international reality.”

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Offline MarkOttawa

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Quote
The development of Kosovo into a democratic, multi-ethnic state that fully respects human rights is essential for peace, political stability and economic progress in the Balkans...

Good luck.

Mark
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Offline Zip

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Good luck.

Mark
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Yeah cause they've done such a bang up job of that so far...
"I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man; nor ask another man to live for mine."
UNCOMMON SENSE

Offline MarkOttawa

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Military law imposed on divided Kosovo town after Serb rioting
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/europe/military-law-imposed-on-divided-kosovo-town-after-serb-rioting-797805.html

Quote
Nato has put the northern Kosovo town of Mitrovica under de facto military law after rioting by Serbs hostile to the newly independent state left one UN policeman dead and forced the withdrawal of UN staff.

The violence, which erupted on Monday at the UN courthouse in the divided town, was the worst since Kosovo's Albanian majority declared independence from Serbia last month. Nato officials said that protesters had "crossed a red line", using Molotov cocktails and grenades. A 25-year-old Ukrainian policeman died after being caught in by a grenade blast, becoming the first UN policeman to die in Kosovo since the UN took control in 1999.

In Mitrovica, the main bridge over the river that separates the town's Serb north from the Albanian south, was closed. French, Belgian and Spanish peacekeepers from the Nato-led force in armoured personnel carriers secured potential flashpoints and a column of US troops arrived to provide back-up [emphasis added--hmm]. Meanwhile, all Kosovo Serb police officers were ordered to suspend normal duties...

Why is Jack Layton not decrying this oppressive action by NATO? Surely the UN should be put in charge?
http://www.ndp.ca/page/6134

Mark
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Serb PM doing Jack Layton's job for him:
http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2008/03/23/europe/OUKWD-UK-SERBIA-KOSOVO.php

Quote
Serbian Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica on Sunday accused NATO peacekeepers and United Nations police of using "snipers and banned ammunition" to quell a Serb riot against Kosovo's independence.

"It was the international forces," he told the daily Vecernje Novosti in an interview, referring to a riot in the Kosovo Serb stronghold of Mitrovica last Monday in which a Ukrainian U.N. policeman was killed and a Serb badly wounded in the head.

"Obviously, the situation in Kosovo is very difficult and there are reasonable and unreasonable people. The battle is on for the whole of Kosovo," Kostunica said.

When the powers which back independence for the majority Albanian province realised that Serbia would never recognise it, "they displayed force," Kostunica said "brutal force, snipers and banned ammunition"...

Kostunica is now a caretaker premier. His coalition collapsed this month over his hard-line policy of rejecting closer European Union ties until the EU reverses its recognition of Kosovo.

He said this would be the key issue in the early general election now scheduled for May 11, with rival Democrats led by pro-Western president Boris Tadic advocating a less confrontational approach.

Serbia would not submit to blackmail, Kostunica said.

He was "seriously worried" by pro-EU Serbs who he said would give Serbia a "government ready to push aside the defence of its integrity and say: Let's join Europe and then fight for Kosovo"...

Meanwhile some seeming logic here:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/homepageCrisis/idUKFIL241533._CH_.242020080322

Quote
Serbia has proposed a plan for the "functional division of Serbs and Kosovo Albanians" in Kosovo, Minister for Kosovo Slobodan Samardzic was quoted on Saturday as saying.

He said the plan referred to all of Kosovo and was part of the government's action plan to reject Kosovo's independence, declared with Western support on Feb. 17.

Diplomats said it amounted to a plan for partition which the West rejects.

Samardzic said Serbia respected a U.N. resolution on Kosovo which turned the province over to U.N. administration and NATO protection in 1999, and the mission that has run it ever since, known as UNMIK.

"We accept resolution 1244
http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/ACOS-64D26H?OpenDocument
and the authority of the UNMIK police, judiciary and customs office. But after the unilateral declaration of independence, only Serbs, with the help of Serbia, can perform those duties," he told the daily Politika.

Samardzic confirmed he submitted the proposal to UNMIK deputy chief Larry Rossin a week ago.

He said that if Serbia did not take over those institutions, then "Kosovo Albanians will, with the tacit approval of UNMIK, within a couple of months gain control of all institutions".

He said Serbia had not given up on 1244, but it had been undermined by the unilateral declaration of independence.

The current situation was "a challenge to UNMIK to be creative and not withdraw with the job not done".

"If they want peace and stability, they must reach a lasting agreement with the Serbs, and not try to put out fire every other day through violence," Samardzic said...

Mark
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Offline MarkOttawa

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And what about the Albanians in Macedonia (FYROM, that is)?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120779330208303779.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries

Quote
NATO's summit in Bucharest last week provided limited blessings for the Balkans. Although Albania and Croatia were invited into the alliance, Macedonia was shunted into the waiting room, Serbia remained on the sidelines, and Russia's persistent threats of renewed regional conflict over Kosovo went unchallenged...

The most glaring summit negative was the postponed decision on Macedonia's NATO membership. The country's entry was blocked by Greece after years of stalled negotiations over the country's name and the formal usage of that name. The Macedonian appellation without a geographic or political qualifier is viewed in Athens as a direct challenge to Hellenic patrimony and identity, making it impossible for the Greek parliament to ratify Macedonia's NATO entry.

Unfortunately, the Macedonian authorities became overconfident that Washington would prevail as a mediator in the dispute with Athens and failed to adopt an acceptable compromise position. The country's invitation to NATO depends solely on an agreement with Greece – a prospect that may now prove even more elusive than before the summit.

In the wake of NATO's postponement, Macedonian politics is likely to radicalize. The fragile government, already abandoned by its Albanian coalition partners, could be forced to resign if it agrees to a new name that would entail a constitutional amendment. One can expect a flurry of accusations against Athens and a resurgence of nationalist passions. But this would only diminish Macedonia's reputation as a reliable NATO candidate.

Unless a sound strategy is devised in negotiations with Greece, with high-level U.S. involvement, the ensuing political turmoil may encourage leaders of the Albanian minority to push for territorial autonomy in a swath of territory bordering Kosova and Albania [emphasis added]. This would capsize the Ohrid agreement painstakingly devised to ensure interethnic co-existence in a unitary state following the Albanian insurgency in the summer of 2001.

The broader regional consequences of not resolving Macedonia could also prove destabilizing. If Skopje does not promptly recognize Kosovo's statehood and fails to conclude a border agreement with Pristina, it could encourage some Albanian militants inside Macedonia to push for territorial adjustments. The militants might also conclude, in the absence of NATO membership, that Macedonia is merely a "temporary state."

Russia will also seek to benefit from Macedonian uncertainties by prodding for closer economic, political and security ties with Skopje and claiming to be a stalwart protector against pan-Albanianism and "Islamic terrorism." The objective will be to add another property on Moscow's expanding Monopoly board and construct a chain of Balkan dependencies stretching toward Central and Western Europe...

Mark
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Offline geo

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Ahh... the Bal;kans in the Spring.

Then smell of insurection in the air.... kaf, kaf!  :warstory:
Chimo!

I have been turned into a ferret by the resident witch!!
And back again..... what a ride!

Offline MarkOttawa

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British grenadiers being strained:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/29/narmy129.xml

Quote
The Armed Forces are being stretched to "dangerous levels", critics claimed yesterday after it emerged that a final reserve battalion will be sent to Kosovo.

Des Browne, the Defence Secretary, will tell Parliament that a battle group of more than 600 troops from the 2nd Bn The Rifles will fly out to a potentially hostile reception next month...

...opposition politicians yesterday accused the Government of stretching the military to "paper thin" levels.

"The Army will be holding its breath and hoping that there is no severe deterioration in the security situation," said Nick Harvey, the Lib Dem defence spokesman.

"With a further deployment in Kosovo it is hard to see how the simultaneous operations in Iraq, Afghanistan are remotely sustainable, even in the short term."

He called for a Strategic Defence Review "as a matter of urgency" in order to "better match resources with our commitments".

Defence chiefs have negotiated for the infantry battalion to remain on operations for 30 days as Kosovo, which was forcibly removed from Serb national territory after the UN imposed "supervised independence" in February.

But they could remain longer if there is trouble from the minority Serb population after the new Kosovo constitution is introduced on June 15 establishing independence that will be welcomed by the majority ethnic Albanians.

Britain is rapidly running out of reserves with eight infantry battalions on operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The same numbers are preparing to deploy and another eight are recovering from the arduous six month tours from a total of 36 battalions...

Mark
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Who's in charge of what?

International forces blur mission lines in Kosovo
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4004249.ece

Quote
Six hundred British troops deployed to “a calm but tense” Kosovo as an operational reserve force are facing an uncertain and unpredictable one-month tour.

The soldiers from the 2nd Battalion The Rifles have been deploying for some weeks and will be at full strength tomorrow and operationally ready to begin their mission on Wednesday.

The battalion is highly experienced, having served in Iraq on two tours, in 2003 and 2006/2007, and is being sent to Afghanistan next year.

The battalion also served in Kosovo, in 2005, but this time the former Yugoslav province is now the world’s newest sovereign country - the Republic of Kosovo - and the potential for confrontation between the majority Albanians and the minority Serbs remains the biggest concern for the international community.

Nato diplomatic sources said the Kosovan Albanians had been “remarkably restrained” in the face of provocation from the Serb community, following the declaration of unilateral independence by the majority ethnic administration in Pristina on February 17.

However, the sources warned that the political stability of Kosovo was being undermined by the failure of the United Nations and the European Community to clarify their roles and responsibilities. There remained confusion, they said, between UNMIK, the UN Mission in Kosovo, and EULEX, the EU police mission.”What is key is for the EU police mission fully to take responsibility for policing Kosovo, but there seems to be some hesitation over this, which puts the Nato troops serving in the Kosovo Force (Kfor) in a difficult position. Kfor is not supposed to be a police force but is there to maintain a safe and secure environment,” one Nato diplomatic source said.

Unless the roles were properly organised and implemented, the sources said, it could provoke potential problems for the new country as it approaches the next key date in its development - June 15 - when the constitution comes into force, with significant authority transferring from UNMIK to the
Kosovars...

Mark
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Boy, this peacekeeping can sure get complicated:

NATO says can't be police force for Kosovo
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/080528/n_top_news/news_kosovo_nato_col

Quote
NATO troops should not be left to shoulder police tasks in Kosovo, the U.S.-led alliance said on Wednesday as signs grew that a European Union plan to take over police duties there faced months of delay.

Kosovo's ethnic Albanian government asked the EU to take over policing from the United Nations when it declared independence from Serbia in February, but Serb ally Russia has so far blocked any formal handover.

EU officials say the diplomatic logjam has held up their preparations for the mission and NATO is worried that its 16,000-plus KFOR peacekeeping force will be left to perform classic police duties such as crowd control.

"We don't want KFOR to be in the position of first responder. It is not a police force and should not be in the position of being a police force," an alliance spokesman said.

"We can and do ask other international organizations to play that role," he told reporters in Brussels as NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer headed to New York to discuss the issue with U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon...

Alliance diplomats fear a scenario in which heavily armed NATO soldiers are called on to police demonstrations or deal with disturbances, tasks for which they have not been trained.

The 27-member EU initially hoped its 2,200-strong EULEX force would be able to take over police tasks ranging from riot control to training of senior officers by mid-June.

But with no formal handover agreed, the United Nations in Kosovo (UNMIK) mission is remaining on the ground. The logjam is preventing the EU personnel from taking over their premises and raising broader questions about how the two will coordinate.

Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini said this week he expected the EULEX mission to be fully operational in September or October, and EU officials now expect a potentially awkward period of cohabitation with UNMIK for some time
[emphasis added].

Mark
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Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline time expired

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Ah, its wonderful,just watching the United Europeans swinging
into action.How many months ago was the it agreed that the EU
would take over the civilian policing in Kosovo?.If we could just
harness the hot air these European politicos spout we would be
closer to solving the climate change problems.
                                        Regards
nothing is better for the morale of the troops
as occasionally to see a dead general
               field marshal slim

Offline Colin P

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An interesting look at Serbia

http://www.michaeltotten.com/

Offline MarkOttawa

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How will there be no "prejudice to the status of Kosovo" (i.e. part of Serbia under UNSC Resolution 1244 http://www.cfr.org/content/publications/attachments/1244.pdf )
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7451310.stm

Quote
UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon has set out plans to start ceding UN functions in Kosovo to the EU, despite stiff opposition from Russia.

The announcement comes only days before the disputed territory adopts a new constitution, following its declaration of independence in February.

Russia has demanded that the UN head in Kosovo, Joachim Ruecker, be disciplined or sacked over the "scandalous" moves.

Moscow said such moves "must decisively be prevented".

Kosovo President Fatmir Sejdiu confirmed on Thursday that he had received a letter from Mr Ban.

He did not disclose its contents, but Reuters news agency said it had obtained a copy.

"It is my intention to reconfigure the structure and profile of the international civil presence to one that... enables the European Union to assume an enhanced operational role in Kosovo," Mr Ban says in the letter, according to Reuters.

Nato role

Kosovo has been under UN supervision since Nato forces ousted Yugoslav forces from the Serbian province in the late 1990s.

Russia has backed its Serbian ally and opposed steps towards independence for Kosovo, including the handover of responsibility for security from the UN to the EU.

Mr Ban said the "reconfiguration" of the Unmik mission would not "prejudice to the status of Kosovo".

However, Russia said any change to a UN mission must involve the UN Security Council - where Russia holds veto power.

Meanwhile, Nato announced that its member states would train a new multi-ethnic internal security force in Kosovo.

A Nato spokesman said the new Kosovo Security Force would be 2,500 members strong, multi-ethnic, civilian-controlled, and lightly armed.

Mark
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Kosova constitution proclaimed; UN mostly moving out:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4144414.ece

Quote
Kosovo’s Government adopted its new constitution yesterday in a low-key ceremony intended to mark the handover of UN administrative power to Pristina and the EU...

In reality, a full handover of UN authority could take many months and it is expected to remain a key player in the Serb half of the northern city of Mitrovica, where the EU has struggled to establish a presence.

President Tadic of Serbia said he viewed the proclamation of the Kosovan constitution as illegal. “Serbia views Kosovo as its southern province,” he said. “It will defend its integrity by peaceful means, using diplomacy, without resorting to force.”..

The UN has overseen Kosovo’s institutions since its brief war with Serbia in 1999 to halt the ethnic cleansing of the late former Serb ruler Slobodan Milosevic.

UN responsibility for helping the police and local government was mostly passed to the EU last week at Kosovo’s request but Russia said it considered the 2,200-strong EU mission illegal because it has not been approved by the UN Security Council.

Despite the Russian protests, Ban Ki Moon, the UN Secretary General, said last week that he intended to “reconfigure the international civil presence” in Kosovo “in keeping with the European Union’s expressed willingness to play an enhanced operational role in Kosovo in the area of the rule of law.”

He added: “The European Union will, over a period of time, gradually assume increasing operational responsibilities in the areas of international policing, justice, and customs throughout Kosovo.”

However, the UN is expected to continue to play a role in Mitrovica, further fuelling fears of an ethnic partition [emphasis added]...

Kosovo’s declaration of independence in February has been recognised by 43 UN member nations including Britain, the United States and Turkey. The EU remains divided with Spain and Romania among seven members refusing to acknowledge its legitimacy...

Mark
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Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline MarkOttawa

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What's the exit strategy for this failed military mission?  And where are the demands to end the futile foreign occupation
http://www.euforbih.org/eufor/index.php?Itemid=28&id=12&option=com_content&task=view
of an obviously failed state with a large Muslim population? Bosnia-Hercegovina, that is:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/22/AR2009082202234.html?sid=ST2009082202479

Quote
Fourteen years after the United States and NATO intervened to stop war and ethnic cleansing in Bosnia [Canadian angle here--there were no great demands to withdraw our troops, as I recall--odd that],
http://www.comfec-cefcom.forces.gc.ca/pa-ap/nr-sp/doc-eng.asp?id=2279
the old divisions and hatreds are again gripping this Balkan country.

In June, the international envoy who oversees the rebuilding of Bosnia invoked emergency powers that he said were necessary to hold the country together. Although U.S. and European officials have been trying to get Bosnia to stand on its own feet for years, many Bosnian leaders say the only thing that can permanently fix their gridlocked government is for Washington to intervene -- again -- and rewrite the treaty that ended the war in 1995.

The economy is in tatters, with unemployment exceeding 40 percent. Serbs are talking openly of secession. Croats are leaving the country in droves. Religious schisms are widening. In December, street protests erupted after Bosnian Muslim school officials in Sarajevo tried to ban "Santa Claus" from delivering gifts to kindergartens.

The national government answers to three presidents, who agree on one thing: Corruption, political infighting and bureaucratic dysfunction are paralyzing the country...

The European Union, the United States and other donors have spent billions of dollars trying to rebuild Bosnia since the 1995 signing of the Dayton peace accords, brokered largely by U.S. diplomats. An estimated 100,000 people were killed during the war, which erupted in 1992 after Bosnia declared independence from the former Yugoslavia...

But the international campaign to transform Bosnia into a pluralistic democracy is still limping along with no end in sight. The struggle serves as a cautionary example for U.S.-led efforts to rebuild much larger nations hamstrung by ethnic and religious factions, such as Iraq and Afghanistan.

Bosnia is still overseen by an international viceroy, known as the high representative,
http://www.ohr.int/
who holds unchecked authority to dismiss local officials and set policy if deemed necessary for the welfare of the country...

Just wondering. I guess the difference is that those foreign occupiers aren't dying in combat.

And a post at Daimnation! about another failing, mainly Muslim, polity:

Helping this country is futile
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/011068.html

Mark
Ottawa
« Last Edit: August 23, 2009, 16:39:48 by MarkOttawa »
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.