Topic: New Japanese Carrier

[tomahawk6]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/ddh-x.htm

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htnavai/articles/20070825.aspx

Japan's Secret Aircraft Carriers
August 25, 2007: Japan launched the first of its new helicopter-carrying destroyers, the Hyuga, amid great fanfare. This vessel, officially 13,500 tons, will be able to carry helicopters. Plans are for them to mostly carry SH-60 helicopters, but the Hyuga will give Japan its first real power projection capability since 1945.

Japan plans to build at least two Hyuga-class vessels, which can carry up to 11 helicopters, displace 13,500 tons, and are equipped with a Mk41 VLS, giving them the ability for fire air-defense missiles like the Standard and the ESSM, and a vertically-launched ASROC, but also the Tomahawk cruise missile, if Japan wished to do so. It also has two triple 12.75-inch torpedo mounts.

The name of the lead ship is probably the first clue that this ship is more than meets the eye. The HIJMS Hyuga was a battleship commissioned in 1918, and which served in World War II. After the battle of Midway in 1942, the Hyuga was converted into a hybrid battleship/aircraft carrier. The new Hyuga looks like a carrier, and her mission sounds like that of a carrier.

This ship in the same weight range of the European "Harrier carriers" (the British Invincibles, the Italian Garibaldi, the Spanish Principe de Asturias, and the Thai Chakri Narubet-classes). While this ship is currently planned to carry helicopters only, European experience (particularly from the British) has shown that this can be an effective platform for fixed-wing aircraft, like the F-35B. That makes the designation of "helicopter carrying destroyer" technically true, but in reality a useful fiction. In essence, they could act as small aircraft carriers or as a landing platform helicopter like HMS Ocean if transport helicopters are used.

Such looseness with designations is nothing new for Japan. In its older incarnation as the Imperial Japanese Navy, there were numerous instances of these involving surface units. The most glaring were the heavy cruisers of the Mogami-class. Supposedly light cruisers displacing 8,500 tons (and fifteen 155-millieter guns), these were really heavy cruisers of over 13,000 tons (with ten eight-inch guns). The claims that those ships were compliant with naval arms limitation treaties were on the disingenuous side.

Another instance involved the super-battleships Yamato and Musashi. The guns had been called "special 40-centimeter", leading many Allied intelligence officers to believe the vessels used sixteen-inch guns. As it is known now, the main battery consisted of nine eighteen-inch (40-centimeter) guns.

In essence, Japan will have a ship about the size of the vessels that were the centerpiece of the British response to a crisis halfway around the world 25 years ago, with a flight deck and an offset island. They performed well, too – just ask Argentina. The Hyuga means that Japan is back in the power projection business. – Harold C. Hutchison (haroldc.hutchison@gmail.com)

 

[Haletown]

That's some "destroyer"

Some pix here:  http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/world-armed-forces/aircraft-carriers-ii-17-3125.html#post69657

[tomahawk6]

Great link Haletown. I had a hard time finding pic's.

[CDN Aviator]

did i just hear everyone in Hawaii hold their breath for a second ?

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Nice looking ship....


Matthew. 

[Haletown]

anyone know the Japanese for "Big Honkin Ship"  ? ? ? ?

[IN HOC SIGNO]

anyone know the Japanese for "Big Honkin Ship"  ? ? ? ?

Maybe we could buy a couple of these off the shelf eh??

[S.M.A.]

The Hyugas are a surprise to me, though Japan already had "carriers" earlier in this decade if you count the Osumi class assault ships which have long decks that seem capable of landing any VTOL aircraft; IIRC, their capabilities are similar to a US LHD of the US Wasp or Tarawa class though the Japanese ships don't have Harriers.

It is fitting that the Japanese named the new ship Hyuga, which was also the name of a WW2-era battleship which was converted into a Hybrid Battleship carrier as a response to the heavy carrier fleet losses in the Battle of Midway in June 1942. The Hyuga and her sister ship Ise never saw combat in their new role, and they were finally pummeled into useless hulks when the USN carrier fleets of TF58/38 began bombarding Japan mercilessly in mid-1945.

As for the Osumi class assault ships/LHDs, they are old news. The South Koreans have also completed their own (possibly Harrier or even JSF capable for the future, since they also have a long flat deck like the Osumi class) helicopter-carrying Dokdo-class assault ship. The ROK's new ship could be a response to the Japanese "carriers", though this buildup of the arsenals of East Asian and Southeast Asian navies has been going on for decades; the Thais also made their own Harrier-capable carrier, named the HTMS Chakri Naruebet, in the late 1990s, if I can recall correctly.

A Source confirming the ROKS Dokdo's existence:

http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/showphoto.php?photo=23695

[ModlrMike]

Just to add some perspective, our DDH are 4750 tonnes, which makes these ships almost three times the displacement. Just the same, a couple of these in our Navy would be just the ticket. 

[Ex-Dragoon]

*sigh* Back to the carrier argument again I see.....fine, where are we going to get the crews to man these without raping the fleet anymore then it already is.....where are we going to find the ships to escort them once the fleet is raped?

build up on our escort capabilities and our manpower then work on something else.....

[Cardstonkid]

Japan is feeling threatened by its increasingly troublesome neightbors. Russia is flexing  its nationalist ambitions, China is growing a big military and N. Korea is crazy and they have the bomb.

Japan better build a few more of those things.

[MedTech]

Just a question for some of the more learned members on the board.

Isn't one of the conditions of the surrender that Japan was never again to have a military capability of more then what is necessary for self-defence?

That being said, more and more recently I am seeing updated weaponry that could be projected and telescoped outward into other nearby countries. Have we really learned nothing at all from the WWII? There was a reason why the imposed condition was the way it was, allowing heavier arms build up is just asking for trouble in my perspective.

One may argue political reasons for the US allowing such a build up to continue... and I think I would like some speculative answers from our learned members here.

[Chilly]

You are correct, if memory serves me correct. It is written right in to the constitution of Japan, and would require constitutional change. I remember that a few years ago the Japanese wanted to move towards a blue water Navy and away from just a littoral one.

I believe it has to do with Article Nine of the Constitution.

Sorry I am being lazy and not doing the research, but i think that you will find it very fast by looking up said Article.

Chilly

Edited to add some back gorund links which discuss Article Nine.

http://www.solon.org/Constitutions/Japan/English/english-Constitution.html

http://worldnews.about.com/od/japan/a/article_nine.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3561378.stm

[time expired]

There has been an effort to change the Japanese constitution
to get ride of this clause.I do not know if this is coming from
the government or the military,but it seems to me to be a
smart move considering the arms race that is going on in that
area.Oz,pay attention.
                     Regards

[Spencer100]

There has been an effort to change the Japanese constitution
to get ride of this clause.I do not know if this is coming from
the government or the military,but it seems to me to be a
smart move considering the arms race that is going on in that
area.Oz,pay attention.
                    Regards

I think Oz is paying attention.  They have ordered their own "flat tops" , mini carriers or BHS (what ever you call them) and air defence destroyers from a Spanish company. Plus I think they are increasing their defence budget.  New F-18D's, C-17, tanks, Bushmasters and other things.

It will be very interesting watch this part of the world in the next few years.  I think Japan rearming somewhat is a good thing.  The neighborhood is getting a little rough with the bully (China) getting rich and flexing muscles and others acting "crazy" (NK)  Plus the policeman (USA) is a little distracted somewhere else.   China is building a blue water navy.  Japan is taking note of this.   Japan can act as a postive force in the area.

[geo]

Based on the Self-Defense Forces Law of 1954, the nation's defense establishment is organized to ensure civilian control of the armed forces. The result has been a unique military system. All SDF personnel are technically civilians: those in uniform are classified as special civil servants and are subordinate to the ordinary civil servants who run the Ministry of Defense. There are no military secrets, military laws, or offenses committed by military personnel; whether on-base or off-base, on-duty or off-duty, of a military or non-military nature, are all adjudicated under normal procedures by civil courts in appropriate jurisdictions.

In November 2005, constitutional revisions were proposed which would create a cabinet level Defense Ministry while keeping the old clauses mandating official pacifism. Under the proposed revisions, the JSDF would also be formally referred to as a military force for the first time since its establishment. The new wording proposed is "In order to secure peace and the independence of our country as well as the security of the state and the people, military forces for self-defense shall be maintained with the prime minister of the cabinet as the supreme commander." The amendment is gaining more and more public support in recent years.  On June 8 2006, the Japanese cabinet endorsed a bill elevating the Defense Agency to Defense Ministry. This was passed by the Diet in December 2006.

Japan has also deepened its security and military ties with Australia and its leaders are talking about the formation of a military pact in Asia similar to NATO.

[Retired AF Guy]

Happened to pick-up Radio Japan on my shortwave a couple of days ago and they were talking about Afghanistan. The announcer mentioned that the Japanese Maritime forces have oilers off Pakistan that are refueling NATO vessels which was news to me. The Japanese have been steadily moving from their previous isolationist policies and trying to take a more active part in world affairs. Heck, they even had a force in Iraq for a while doing engineer work. Expect more activity like this from Japan.

[Larry Strong]

Happened to pick-up Radio Japan on my shortwave a couple of days ago and they were talking about Afghanistan. The announcer mentioned that the Japanese Maritime forces have oilers off Pakistan that are refueling NATO vessels which was news to me. The Japanese have been steadily moving from their previous isolationist policies and trying to take a more active part in world affairs. Heck, they even had a force in Iraq for a while doing engineer work. Expect more activity like this from Japan.

And getting them there required a little bit of side stepping by Koizumi.  The pacifist Article 9 of Japan’s constitution forbids the country’s government from “settling international disputes” by the “threat or use of force”. Koizumi sought to sidestep the issue with the claim that Japan was “not going to war” but sending troops to a “non-combat area” of Iraq to provide “humanitarian assistance”. Twas a bit of a transparent ruse.

[GAP]

Twas a bit of a transparent ruse.

But hugely precedent setting....

[ModlrMike]

*sigh* Back to the carrier argument again I see.....fine, where are we going to get the crews to man these without raping the fleet anymore then it already is.....where are we going to find the ships to escort them once the fleet is raped?

build up on our escort capabilities and our manpower then work on something else.....

Yes, I know, and manning is a valid point. However, we can covet them none the less.

[Ex-Dragoon]

Happened to pick-up Radio Japan on my shortwave a couple of days ago and they were talking about Afghanistan. The announcer mentioned that the Japanese Maritime forces have oilers off Pakistan that are refueling NATO vessels which was news to me. The Japanese have been steadily moving from their previous isolationist policies and trying to take a more active part in world affairs. Heck, they even had a force in Iraq for a while doing engineer work. Expect more activity like this from Japan.

The Japanese have had a naval presence in the Gulf and Indian Ocean since '01. Not a new mission for them at all.

Yes, I know, and manning is a valid point. However, we can covet them none the less.

Coveting things that you know you will never get does nothing for morale. Wish for the more attainable and practical things.

[NL_engineer]

IMHO Japan will not try to become an imperialist nation (again), after what happened last time; also as an island state they need a navy to defend themselves.


As for threats,

China is in more of a transmission state, that could lead to anything over the next number years.  By saying that it will be hard to predict how communism will fall, if it will be peaceful or violent.  (It is coming; The party knows that it will be loosing out to capitalism, and are just trying to keep control.  This can be seen with the elections in towns, wealth, the formation of a middle class, etc.)

North Korea is the major player, as they may have nuclear weapons.  IMO North Korea will go south (meaning invade South Korea)  before it tries to invade any other country.

Russia is still an unknown, some recent speculation in the media says that the bear may be wakening up, so we will have to wait and see.


That's just my 2 cents worth

[Bane]

"Japan's Secret Aircraft Carriers:
August 25, 2007: Japan launched the first of its new helicopter-carrying destroyers, the Hyuga, amid great fanfare. "

Oh Strategy Page....

[tomahawk6]

This design would be great for convoy escort or as a floating base for special ops and might be able to support Harrier or follow on VTOL aircraft.



13,950-ton JDS Hyuga (16DDH) is handed over to Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force from its builder IHI Marine United Inc. in Yokohama, southwest of Tokyo, Wednesday, March 18, 2009. The newly-built helicopter-carrying destroyer, similar in design to a small aircraft carrier, is the the largest Japanese warship since World War II, deploying three helicopters on the flight deck while carrying up to 11 others on the hangar deck inside, Kyodo News said. (AP / Kyodo News / Yohei Kanasashi)

[tango22a]

I would like to see THIS DDH in Canadian service!

tango22a

P.S. BEFORE the slagging starts....I AM out of my very limited area of knowledge.