Author Topic: Afghanistan: Why we should be there (or not), how to conduct the mission (or not) & when to leave  (Read 160941 times)

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Online Kirkhill

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....JB just needs to tighten up his style a bit.

Cheers

Good point pbi. I withdraw the snarky smiley.
Over, Under, Around or Through.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Blowing Up Statues Of The Buddha All Over Again
http://transmontanus.blogspot.com/2007/11/blowing-up-statues-of-bhudda-all-over.html

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In the shoddy, shallow, squalid and grotesquely politicized "debate" in Canada about Afghanistan and the role of our military there, the one question that matters more than any other is how we can prevent the return of this kind of savagery, still wreaking its havoc just across the border in Pakistan:

Destroying statues of the Buddha. Threatening Christians with death unless they convert to Islam. Burning barber shops. Shutting down a UNICEF polio-vaccination program. Setting fire to stores that sell Indian and western movies. Dispatching suicide bombers to murder soldiers.

Roger Cohen gets it:

The Nazis burned Brecht. The Taliban, then sheltering Osama bin Laden, bombarded the “un-Islamic” Buddhas. The burning presaged war. The destruction presaged 9/11: two Buddhas, two towers.

Heinrich Heine noted that “When they burn books, they will, in the end, burn human beings.” When Buddhas buckle, people will be crushed...

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline Colin P

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Time lines I have used when speaking in public:

ANA: Two battalions on the ground in Kandahar today, expected to rise to 5 by the end of this ROTO (for people versed in military matters I explain these are essentially "motor" battalions with rifles and light/medium arms).
ANA Full control of Afghanistan: A decade
Microcredit programs to show effective results: 2-5 years while these women learn their trade and make a profit
Education: 10 years for the 6 million children to graduate and begin taking higher education or technical training
Higher education: 10 more years to reach critical mass of trained and educated professional and technical personnel
Rebuilding a nation: 20 years for Germany and Japan

Lots of work to do, and we should be there all the way since we essentially pledged ourselves for the task in 2002. The field force might not be needed after 2011 (maybe sooner, maybe later), but the other two "D"'s will need to keep going for decades to come.
 

Good breakdown, I keep telling people this is a generational war, this generation needs to get through school with an education that is useful. The Taliban understand that an educated population is determentail to their cause, hence schools and teachers are their targets along with any government infrastructure. funny to think that our left-wing socialists are backing a group that wishes to destroy government structure, which is a primary tool of socialist to promote their concept of society.

Offline MarkOttawa

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A good piece in The Independent (sub-head is a bit torqued):

Lest we forget
In Afghan fields, the poppies blow... and another British soldier dies in a war without end

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article3146457.ece

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...The latest death occurred yesterday: a soldier serving with 36 Engineer Regiment was killed when his vehicle rolled off a bridge near Sangin in Helmand province, the scene of some of the most bitter fighting since British forces were sent to there early last year.

Although British troops in Helmand and the Canadians in Kandahar have regained some of the territory lost to the Taliban, they simply do not have the troops in numbers to hold the ground. As a result, repeated operations have to be undertaken to recapture strategic positions.

The battle being waged against the Taliban in southern and eastern Afghanistan can seem remote even in Kabul, let alone Britain, though insecurity has crept closer to the Afghan capital in recent months. A new front was opened this week, when more than 70 people were killed and more than 100 injured in the northern town of Baghlan in the worst suicide bombing in the country's history...

 The northern Tajiks, Uzbeks and Hazaras who dominate the life of the capital certainly do not want the Taliban back. But they fail to understand why the battles being fought against the Pashtuns, both Afghan and Pakistani, who constitute the majority of Taliban fighters, along with a small but significant number of extremists from other Muslim countries, have not made their own lives safer. They are uneasy too at the growing toll of Afghan civilians, often in air strikes called in by Nato forces spread too thinly on the ground.

Despite urgent appeals most of the other Nato members have failed to come up with troops for Afghanistan and even some who have deployed there have put caveats on these forces, effectively shielding them from full-scale combat...

 British commanders in the country openly admit the Taliban's propaganda has been far more effective than their own. One of its most telling slogans, addressed to Nato, has been: "You have the watches but we have the time. " In other words, all the money and technology Nato has brought to bear will be of no avail, because its commitment will not last.

Farmers in Afghanistan may soon be subsidised in an effort to stop them producing heroin, in a radical plan proposed by Gordon Brown. Ministers are looking at introducing a system of payments, similar to the Common Agricultural Policy, to encourage farmers away from opium production.

Britain has recognised that it must emphasise, both to Afghans and its own people, that it is in for the long haul. The beefing up of the diplomatic mission in Kabul – which will in due course move back to the grand 19th-century premises built in Lord Curzon's day – is one clear token of that [actually the premises were built in the 1920s under Curzon's instructions as Foreign Secretary--I've stayed there, nice suburban villas].
http://www.e-ariana.com/ariana/eariana.nsf/allDocsArticles/8B9995881912CB4787256C230051698C?OpenDocument

And this week the Defence Secretary, Des Browne, made it clear that the British military commitment would last at least until 2010. Mr Browne announced that a temporary brigade headquarters was being set up to command British forces in Afghanistan after October 2009, when the current British deployment ends, to April 2010.

"The precise size and duration of the UK military in Afghanistan will depend on a number of factors, including the ability of the Afghan security forces to take greater responsibility for the security of their own country," he said on Thursday. "However, to ensure that any forces we might deploy are properly prepared and commanded, it is necessary for the brigade headquarters to be established now."..   

...the Taliban fighters are increasingly well trained and using sophisticated techniques, according to the commander of the 1,200-strong Polish contingent in Afghanistan. Brigadier General Marek Tomaszycki added: " We have more and more examples of tactics which are used in Iraq and are being imported to Afghanistan. We have to consider the enemy as very dangerous."

But even so, the baffled bookseller of Kabul is not alone in needing to be reminded why British troops are in his country. They went there to oust a movement which had reduced Afghanistan to anarchy and penury, and gave safe haven to al-Qa'ida, which wants to Talibanise the whole world.

But at least Britain now has more troops stationed in Afghanistan – 7,700 – than it does in Iraq. They face a task made more difficult because of the West's, and their own Government's, fitful attention to it. But the 83 British soldiers who have given their lives there will not have not done so in vain if Britain stays the course – something it owes to its own people, as well as to those of Afghanistan...

A lovely rhyme about Curzon:
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0016-7398%28198711%29153%3A3%3C343%3ACAP%3E2.0.CO%3B2-B&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage

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My name is George Nathaniel Curzon
I am a most superior person
My hair is soft, my face is sleek,
I dine at Blenheim once a week.

Mark
Ottawa
« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 14:48:19 by MarkOttawa »
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Randall lost the handle.  A letter just sent to the Ottawa Citizen:

Quote
It is fine for Randall Denley to oppose the Canadian Forces' mission in Afghanistan ("Keep in mind the soldiers who are yet to die", Nov. 11).
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/columnists/story.html?id=a6cd7888-3e80-499b-b077-2ef3b466491b
It is also fine for Mr Denley to note that our military have a bigger budget and a new prominence in the country--though writing that Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Hillier "is practically treated like a rock star" is a bit of a cheap shot. What however is not fine is to then write: "Sure, it's taken a few lives to accomplish all of this, but from the perspective of National Defence Headquarters, the costs have to look pretty modest compared to the gains."

So Mr Denley thinks the leaders of the Canadian Forces are quite happy to have our soldiers die in order to achieve their organizational goals. That is a disgraceful slur on those officers and on Gen. Hillier in particular.

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline zipperhead_cop [4]

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Wow.  That is one of the worst articles I have seen in a long time  >:(
God loves stupid people.  That's why He made so many of them.

Of course forests contribute to climate change - you pointless, vacuous wankers.

Offline IN HOC SIGNO

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Agreed that it is a very poor article but unfortunately there are many out there of this same opinion.

Offline Flip

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Opinion is one thing, it is after all an opinion piece, but it's important
to point out the glaring disconnect with some basic facts.
I fired off an email pointing some stuff out, about some of obvious errors

Frankly, what's below is just plain misinformed.

Quote
We have blundered into a fundamental change in our international role. We're no longer just peacekeepers and aid-bringers. We are now prepared to use our military as a foreign policy tool. We have become the kind of country that invades other countries, for their own good.

What he has written is an anti-war and anti-military rant.
His huffing and puffing in this direction has obscured any point he tried to make.
Sadly some people will swallow it.




The liberal democracy has only one flaw.....There will be liberals.

No user serviceable parts inside.
Warranty void if cover is removed.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Scott Taylor is truly being economical with the truth:
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Opinion/978084.html

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...Step forward, NATO slackers.

That’s right: As Canada "punches above its weight" in Kandahar, we are not achieving complete success because other NATO countries are failing to do their bit for the alliance. The latest rallying cry of the Canadian tub-thumpers is that Afghanistan is NATO’s Waterloo and that if our partners don’t step up to the plate to win, we should consider cutting short our own commitment.

Two of the most maligned NATO countries accused of shirking their martial responsibilities are France and Germany. What is ironic about Canadians criticizing these particular allies is that as well as contributing significant contingents to Afghanistan (50 per cent more than Canada, in Germany’s case), they are both still heavily engaged in providing security forces in Bosnia and Kosovo [now that's a rich verbal twist: "security forces", implying something like the CF at Kanadahar when in fact the forces in the Balkans are doing traditional peacekeeping without combat--though the clouds are darkening - MC].
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/index.php/topic,67913.0.html

While Canada has rushed from flavour-of-the-month conflicts over the past decade, many of our NATO allies have been left manning the less newsworthy but still simmering hot spots.

Canada has chosen to place its military eggs into the one Afghan basket, but we should not be so quick to point fingers and denigrate those countries whose ongoing commitments elsewhere allow us the dubious luxury of being in the front-line spotlight [what tosh, Mr Taylor: those commitments elsewhere in no way preclude those countries from giving their troops a "front-line" role in Afstan].

(staylor@herald.ca)

Scott Taylor is editor-in-chief of the military magazine Esprit De Corps.

What blinking spin.  Mr Taylor should stop making disingenuous excuses and listen to the Danish prime minister; the meaning behind some of his diplomatic phrasing is clear:

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Denmark's prime minister on Monday urged other NATO nations to send more troops and money to boost the alliance's operations in Afghanistan.

NATO has some 41,000 troops in Afghanistan, but commanders complain the mission lacks helicopters, mobile units and instructors to train the Afghan army. The alliance also needs more quick-maneuver units to take control of territory won from the Taliban [emphasis added--i.e. combat troops].

"I urge all our partners in NATO to reconsider their contributions to the Afghan mission," Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen told reporters. "I think we need not only more troops, but also more solidarity in the NATO alliance [emphasis added--i.e. get rid of those caveats]."

If alliance members cannot contribute with more soldiers, "it might be possible to provide NATO with funds to finance the operation in Afghanistan," he said.

In September, Denmark increased its contingent in the NATO force in Afghanistan from 440 to some 600 troops. The bulk of the Danes are based in the volatile Helmand province, the scene of some of the heaviest recent fighting.

"The security situation in the southern part of Afghanistan is definitely not satisfactory [emphasis added--"security" here is clearly in context of needing combat-authorized troops]," Fogh Rasmussen said.

Seven Danish troops have been killed in Afghanistan.

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Further to my comment here,
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/index.php/topic,49908.msg636253.html#msg636253

the Ottawa Citizen published this version of the letter Nov. 13 after some negotiation with the letters' editor:

A cheap shot
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/letters/story.html?id=b4603d4f-ca1c-4d5f-9f07-aec5815a87d5

Quote
Re: Keep in mind the soldiers who are yet to die, Nov. 11.

It is fine for columnist Randall Denley to oppose the Canadian Forces' mission in Afghanistan. It is also fine for Mr. Denley to point out that our military, as a result of the Afghan mission, have a bigger budget and a new prominence in the country -- his writing that Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Rick Hillier "is practically treated like a rock star" is a bit of a cheap shot.

What is not fine is to write: "Sure, it's taken a few lives to accomplish all of this, but from the perspective of National Defence Headquarters, the costs have to look pretty modest compared to the gains."

That sentence would be acceptable if Mr. Denley is suggesting that our military leaders consider the the loss of soldiers' lives a regrettable but necessary cost of conducting the Afghan mission -- a mission they have been assigned by both Liberal and Conservative governments.

What Mr. Denley is really suggesting is that the Canadian Forces' senior officers callously consider the deaths as nothing more than the cost of doing business in order to achieve their personal and organizational goals of bigger budgets and more favourable public notice. Suggesting that would be a disgraceful slur on those officers and on Gen. Hillier in particular.

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline pbi

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Here is an e-mail I sent:

Mr Denley: I just read your Nov 11 piece, and as a Canadian soldier who has served in Afghanistan, who has many comrades having served there (or who are there now), and who expects to serve there again in due course, I think you are using your bully pulpit rather badly.

Questioning the rationale behind our presence in Afghanistan is fine: so is the desire to see quantifiable results that the average Canadian can understand and evaluate. I have to admit that despite many efforts, many of them by those of us in uniform, our governments have generally done a poor job on either count. Your point: ""...Canadians don't take themselves and their country seriously enough to have an intelligent discussion about our role in the world, but it's time we started." is an excellent one with which most soldiers would agree without much question. I agree fully that rhetoric should not cloud an issue as important as our mission in Afghanistan.

Unfortunately, in pursuing that debate you indulged in some pretty questionable pontificating and rhetoric yourself. Not content with casting your vote for the failure of the mission, you got in a few sharp digs at those of us who have the responsibility of leading the men and women of this country who volunteer to serve. I never thought of myself as a bloody handed-careerist climbing up the career ladder on a pile of skulls, but you have certainly enlightened me!

Beyond that sojourn into muck-slinging, you then ventured into an area in which you are quite clearly out of your depth: commenting on foreign policy. To make a silly, distorted statement like:

. We have blundered into a fundamental change in our international role. We're no longer just peacekeepers and aid-bringers. We are now prepared to use our military as a foreign policy tool. We have become the kind of country that invades other countries, for their own good."

reveals a rather weak grasp of fact. Canada has never, to the best of my knowledge, been "just a peacekeeper or aid bringer". Peacekeeping, much to the surprise of many Canadians such as yourself, has never been the primary focus of the Canadian Forces, nor has it been the top priority assigned to us by any Canadian government I have served under since 1974. Up until the early 90's, our primary overseas purpose was to be ready, as part of NATO, to fight the Warsaw Pact. In those days, there were always more Canadian soldiers and equipment stationed in Germany than in all of our contemporary UN missions put together. Our Air Force and our Navy were almost solely focused on NORAD or NATO roles. After the collapse of the Soviet Union and our withdrawal from Germany, the CF participated in combat roles in Iraq and Kosovo, neiither of which was a peacekeeping mission. Our experiences in Croatia and Somalia reminded us that well trained and equipped  combat troops are esssential for any peace support mission other than the most benign. Perhaps that is the reason that the overwhelming majority of my career, as well as that of my peers, has been spent on educating and preparing ourselves to operate in the entire spectrum of conflict, not just the "safe" low end of high-consensus peacekeeping. Not training to be a "peacekeeper" or "aid giver", although we can take those tasks in stride as required. Sadly, having served on a number of these UN peace support missions, I can only attest to the relative ineffectiveness, inefficiency and corrupt wastefulness of many of them, as can numbers of my peers.

As a professional military, we understand far better than most Canadians the nature of the conflict in Afghanistan, and admit freely and openly that the long term solutuion can utlimately only arrive through development and diplomacy. But, along the way, varying degrees of military effort will be required to support the other instruments. History and analysis both make this pretty clear. We understand, as Gen Hillier has articulated, that it will be a long haul, but that fact alone neither makes the mission wrong nor cheapens the deaths of our comrades in the way that you so ill-advisedly chose Nov 11 to attempt.


Cheers
The Nation that makes a great distinction bewteen its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. ...

Offline MarkOttawa

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pbi: Wow.  I'm sending it to the letters' editor, for his information.

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline IN HOC SIGNO

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excellent letter....very well articulated. It won't change his mind one iota cause people like him have and agenda but if it gets printed it just may get a few other folks thinking,,,well said BZ

Offline pbi

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Thanks. I should have hit spell check before "SEND", but WTF. Articles like his make me angry: which, I suppose, is his objective.

Cheers
The Nation that makes a great distinction bewteen its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. ...

Offline MarkOttawa

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Are the Canadian Forces' leaders blood-sucking careerists? ;)
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/11/are-canadian-forces-leaders-blood.html

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.