Topic: New Coast Guard Ships

[Colin P]

There has been much talk of using contractors to carry out many of the CCG's traditional tasks such as buoy tending and at the same time the number of fixed and floating aids has been slashed as well as the number of ships. Many of the lightstations have been reduced or automated, a trend that will continue. The CCG may end up having to look for new roles for it's large ships to stay viable.

[Blackadder1916]

I don't think that's quite right.  A better statement might be that the Canadian navy combines the overseas functions of the USN with the domestic military functions of the USCG.  But it has none of the other "coast guard" roles that the USCG has.

Aware of that, but my comment of "maybe including Canada" was meant to suggest that perhaps the Canadian Navy should beef up it's domestic military/security abilities first before looking to "project power".  Does this mean that the CCG (vessels and missions) should be absorbed by the CF?  No, because unless adequate funding for all the functions that the government assigns to all its agencies is there you could have the hypothetical situation of a "Canadian Navy icebreaker" suddenly not putting to sea because the admirals in Halifax say they couldn't afford fuel.

[N. McKay]

unless adequate funding for all the functions that the government assigns to all its agencies is there you could have the hypothetical situation of a "Canadian Navy icebreaker" suddenly not putting to sea because the admirals in Halifax say they couldn't afford fuel.

Quite right (and sounds a bit familiar).

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Let me take that and make a slightly closer analogy: same story, but instead of the police it's the fire department.  There are, after all, fire halls all over the place, and firefighters have vehicles with sirens and lights and the ability to move around quickly, they wear uniforms with stripes on their shoulders, and so on...

But security isn't on the radar for firefighters.  Their job is to put out fires, rescue people, and pull the occasional cat out of a tree.  That's what they're trained for, that's what they wanted to do when they applied to work in the fire dept., that's what their equipment is designed for, and their organization (in the fire hall and as a whole department) is set up to do.  Asking them to start doing security work just because they're around the area doesn't makse sense.

I would dare say that coast guard members have a lot more in common with firefighters than they do with cops.

Okay, I'll try to use your firefighter analogy.

40 years ago, they fought fires and that was it.....they were specialists in that field only.  But at some point someone figured out that if they could provide First-Responder Emergency Medical Services that we'd save lives.....and so we forced them to change, to add a new skillset. 

Now are they the capable of handling a multi-vehicle pile-up by themselves?  No.  When a higher-level emergency occurs, the specialist agency intervenes directly (Ambulance and Healthcare Networks).  But their ability to provide basic levels of emergency medical makes them exponentially much more useful.

To apply the CCG isolation model you propose to Firefighters would have Firefighters driving by car accidents and other obvious emergencies because "It ain't a fire.....and so we don't touch it."


Matthew.   

[Ex-Dragoon]

With car accidents there always tends to be a risk of fire with fuel spills etc....

[Cdn Blackshirt]

With car accidents there always tends to be a risk of fire with fuel spills etc....

.....and so you would have the firefighters stand with firehoses extended (pun totally intended  ) ready to address a potential fire issue, but ignore medical treatment until the specialist ambulance arrives (which when applied back to the Navy could be 12+ hours).



Matthew.   

[Colin P]

I have had my friend (he had night shift, I had day) sitting on a overturned fishing boat listening to 6 people (including children) pounding on the hull for help, with no way to help them, he finally got some diving gear and with the arrival of the SAR techs was able to extract the people. Unfortunately by this time they had succumbed to the diesel fumes and none survived.

So sitting around awaiting someone else has happened to us far to frequently.

[Ex-Dragoon]

Thats not what I said matthew and you know it....

Anyways....I am not going to comment further on this issue as I have made the same argument for well over 3 years, my recap is I am doubtful you will ever see the CCG change to an arm force and I am not sure why they would need to asume that duty as we do it already. It would be like the Navy assuming the CCG roles, nice to think we could but impractical. Keep the expertise with the CCG.

[MarkOttawa]

Ex-Dragoon: Exactly.  About 99% of what the CCG does is not related to security or law enforcement.   How many navy or police would like to do that work almost all the time?   Readers should look at the CCG website:
http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/main_e.htm

CCG vessels (as often stated on topics here) are used as platforms for police when needed.   If faster, more capable vessels are needed for this role, then build them--but let police taken on board to do the enforcement work necessary.  If "security" in the serious, military sense, is involved, that is the Navy's job.

As for sovereignty, in the Arctic or anywhere, all that is needed is the presence of government vessels.  Military ships are irrelevant unless we want to start shooting at people such as Americans, Brits, Russians or French.  Armed fishery officers on CCG vessels are quite capable of shooting at other threats.
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/communic/fish_man/office/Fishery_Officer_e.htm#THE%20CONDITIONS%20OF%20EMPLOYMENT

In this case Senator Kenney's committee (which has been doing excellent work) has simply got it wrong.  Moreover, has anyone established that there is an identifiable and serious sea-borne security (non-naval) threat from the seas?

And note that for the St. Lawrence/Great Lakes vessels are to be built specifically to include RCMP personnel.
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,27961.msg549930.html#msg549930
http://www.sfu.ca/casr/doc-ccg-mid-shore-patrol-vessels.htm

Frankly, I'm still confused at to what the MSPV will be.

Mark
Ottawa

[MarkOttawa]

The government has re-announced (this technique makes keeping track of things confusing) the new CCG vessels promised in the recent budget.
http://www.budget.gc.ca/2007/themes/papemhe.html

Ottawa spends $324M for 6 coast guard vessels
CBC News, April 12
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2007/04/12/coast-guard.html

The federal government followed through on a major budget promise on Thursday [April 12], announcing it will spend $324 million to purchase six new vessels for the Canadian Coast Guard.

The vessels, which will be phased into the existing coast guard fleet between 2009 and 2014 [the budget said they would be acquired over ten years - MC], will include four midshore patrol vessels, one offshore science vessel and one hovercraft [the budget promised "six new large vessels"--I don't see how a hovercraft qualifies - MC].

Three of the vessels are bound for British Columbia, two are destined for Nova Scotia and one will go to Quebec.

All six will be built in Canada, which should boost the country's shipbuilding industry [emphasis added], said Fisheries Minister Loyola Hearn...

The government will also redeploy two of its icebreakers from the Maritimes to Newfoundland and Labrador over the next two years.

Including this latest $324-million announcement, the federal government has now spent $750 million on the coast guard since February 2006, purchasing a total of 16 new vessels [emphasis added]. Eleven are being bought to replace aging vessels, while five are entirely new...

The penultimate sentence above is rather disingenuous since 10 of the 16 vessels were a Liberal commitment--see below.

I think I now understand where the sixteen vessels (12 MSPVs) are coming from:

The Liberal government announced in 2005 that it would acquire 8 MSPVs (4 for the St. Lawrence/Lakes to be operated in conjunction with the RCMP, plus 2 research vessels: total 10
http://www-comm.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/pages/release/p-releas/2005/nr009_e.htm

The Government of Canada announced in the Budget that the Canadian Coast Guard will receive $276 million over the next five years to begin the modernization of its fleet. Nationally, this will involve the acquisition of two fisheries-research vessels and four mid-shore fisheries patrol boats. Although plans could change based on shifting regional requirements, the current plan is to locate a science trawler and patrol vessel in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia; a patrol vessel in Quebec City, and the three new vessels on the West Coast.

In addition to the $276 million for the six new vessels, the Coast Guard is also receiving funding for the acquisition and operation of four new mid-shore patrol vessels that will be used for security on the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence River. The vessels will be jointly operated by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. This funding is part of the $222 million (on an accrual accounting basis over five years) allocated to federal security agencies to increase security on the Great Lakes and the St. Lawrence River system and will provide the means for the federal security partners to work together more effectively on these waterways...

The Conservative government has added 4 MSPVs, 1 research vessel, and 1 hovercraft: total 6.

Overall total: 16.

Plus jobs and the expectation of votes.  Surely it would be faster and cheaper to buy the vessels abroad.

Newfin has already clarified much of this
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,27961.msg549767.html#msg549767
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,27961.msg549930.html#msg549930

but I just wanted to work it out for myself.

Mark
Ottawa

[newfin]

Have a look at this link.  It is useful for clarifying how many of each type are to be built, where they will be stationed, what functions they are to perform and even which vessels are to be replaced.  The really good info can be found by following the four links under the heading "Fact Sheets"

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/media/newsrel/2007/hq-ac16_e.htm

George

[MarkOttawa]

Newfin: Thanks, very helpful.

The CBC story I quoted
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2007/04/12/coast-guard.html

missed the third fishery science (research) vessel, since with the hovercraft the total number of acquisitions is 17, not 16 as CBC reported.  They simply did not report Minister Hearn's announcement accurately (surprise).
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/media/newsrel/2007/hq-ac15_e.htm

Mark
Ottawa

[gunnz23]

The specs for the PB's are different than what the CIO for the CCG stated. He also didn't say anything about ships for the RCMP, but such vessels make sense. I have a hard time believing a 40 metere ship will have space for only 14!!!

The thing about space for only fourteen is because the rcmp are demanding that their officers all have single cabins , they want a fridge in each as well as a flat screen monitor with nav inputs from the bridge and for tv use and sink , each cabin will be separated by a single washroom/shower. The CCG officers will also have to have their own cabin if the rcmp do, so that is why they will have space for only 14. It also eats up space when every surface in the vessel must be panelled or covered with something to hide wiring /piping etc. THey could probably save 100million in total if they cut back on the carpeting,interior finishings /leather couches for the officers etc.

[gunnz23]

I don't believe that the Coast Guard should have theability to be armed or carry guns. They should be for search anfd rescue and not prevent people from coming to our fishing grounds. how can we keep our reputation as a peace-loving country that welcomes all immigrants if we are stopping people at the boarders!

We should be expanding our helthcare rather than arming the coast guard, or the police.

It's not about stopping immgration, it's stopping illeagle overfishing in canadian waters by foreign fishing fleets that don't abide by canadian catch limits. And yes the coast guard ,as canada's federal on water presence 365 days a year in the great lakes and coastal regions should have law enforcement duties and be armed up to the task at hand.

[gunnz23]

The Coast Guard is already an amalgamation of several other government fleets. The Dept. of Transport ice breaking fleet, Marine Aids to Navigation fleet,Search &Rescue cutter fleet,  RCMP marine division fleet, Canadian Hydrographic Service fleet, Dept. of Fisheries research fleet and dept. of fisheries enforcement fleet . These services all cost money and it has been gov. policy to make services user pay or unload them to private sector just as they have unloaded the country's airports and harbours & ports. The trouble is that not all services can be made to make a profit so they will fade into oblivion like many small airports & harbours.
 

The Coast Guard is not an amalgamation of other fleets , at one time is was under control of Transport Canada , The fleet consists of ships dedicated to SAR , Aids to Nav work/ice breaking, when the merger with dfo happened science along with fishery patrols was added by changing the dfo fleet over to Coast Guard, Coast Guard has always done hydro graphic work for CHS and the CCG has nothing to do with the rcmp marine division they are there own unit, we are not amalgamated with them.

[N. McKay]

The Coast Guard is not an amalgamation of other fleets , at one time is was under control of Transport Canada , The fleet consists of ships dedicated to SAR , Aids to Nav work/ice breaking, when the merger with dfo happened science along with fishery patrols was added by changing the dfo fleet over to Coast Guard, Coast Guard has always done hydro graphic work for CHS and the CCG has nothing to do with the rcmp marine division they are there own unit, we are not amalgamated with them.

If you go back farther (early- to mid-20th century) the Coast Guard was established out of other existing fleets.  More recently it was amalgamated with the DFO fleet when the CCG moved from Transport to Fisheries and Oceans.

[Colin P]

There was the department of Marine transportation, it and most of the RCAF crashboats fleet were turned into the CCG in 1964.

[gunnz23]

I realize it was the dept of transport , before that the services that the coast guard now provide were provided by the dept of marine and fisheries. What I was trying to get across is that there was certain fleets that were listed that coast guard has never been part of to date.

[Colin P]

A little history
http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/usque-ad-mare/main_e.htm

When they combined the white, grey and red fleets, there was much gnashing of teeth, everyone suffered, although the level of crew training and personal equipment improved on the old Fisheries boats under the CCG fleet polices. I remember when we tied up alongside the Sinclair. My buddy who was decking on her showed us their cruiser suits and lifejacket, not much more than tattered rags, I told my Capt, who took a look and then he called the Marine Inspectors who ordered the ship tied to the dock until they replaced the gear. DFO treated their crews like dirt.

[MarkOttawa]

Good grief!  The government can't even run a ship-building competition (shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act):
http://thechronicleherald.ca/print_article.html?story=849097

The delivery of new ships for the coast guard has been delayed by about nine months.

Ottawa announced in April plans to build new midshore patrol vessels that would be based in British Columbia and Nova Scotia.

"The midshore patrol vessel contract was cancelled, and that is for the acquisition of eight midshore patrol vessels," said Canadian Coast Guard spokesman Dan Bate.

"Public Works identified some issues that needed some clarification and those were strictly around the evaluation criteria in the contract."

The ships, which were supposed to be delivered in 2009, are now slated to arrive in 2010, he said.

The request for proposals closed in March, but none of the four bidders complied with the government’s mandatory requirements, Public Works spokeswoman Lucie Brosseau said in an e-mail.

"Review of the four proposals that were received showed that there was a common problem with bidders demonstrating compliance with the government’s mandatory requirements. This, in turn, would have resulted in all of the bids being declared non-compliant. (In other words, we had not clearly articulated our mandatory requirements in our RFP [emphasis added]). These are specialized vessels with unique requirements and they are not simple off-the-shelf purchases, both in terms of technical specifications and in terms of value of the purchase."

The federal government cancelled the existing procurement process July 13. An industry briefing will be held Aug. 2.

"A new procurement process will be launched once an in-depth review of the request-for-proposal documents is completed," [emphasis added] Ms. Brosseau said. "It is anticipated that a contract will be awarded in early 2008."

Mark
Ottawa

[newfin]

There is a short 2 minute piece on the CBC website stating that the government has included in the budget over $700 million to replace the CCGS Louis St. Laurent which is due to be decommisioned by 2017.  I find it amazing that in our times the government can decide to spend that kind of money and it barely recieved any attention.  I'm happy but surprised.

Also, has anyone heard any news if the Mid-shore patrol vessel project is ready for re-tendering?  September 11, 2001 was 6 and a half years ago and we still have not issued a contract to buy ships for the Coast Guard and RCMP to patrol the Great Lakes with.  God help us if we ever find ourselves in a full-scale war.

[newfin]

The last post by MarkOttawa was just over a year ago and at that time the government was saying that they would reissue the tender in 9 months.  I have looked on the Net and have not found anything.  Has anyone here heard any news on these 12 ships for the Coast Guard?

[MarkOttawa]

Newfin: This was the plan at the end of March, 2007:
http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/rpp/0708/fo-po/fo-po03-eng.asp#Major_Crown

Major Milestones

Major Milestones    Date
Preliminary Project Approval (PPA)    August 2005
Price and Availability    September 2005
Letter of Interest to Pre-qualified Suppliers    October 2005
Effective Project Approval (EPA)    June 2006
Requisition from CCG    June 2006
Issue Request for Proposal    November 2006
Contract Award    May 2007
Commence Construction of First Vessel    May 2007
First Vessel Delivery    August 2009
Delivery of 4 Maritime Security Vessels and 4 Fleet Renewal Vessels    May 2011

From the equivalent 2008-2009 document:
http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/rpp/2008-2009/inst/dfo/dfo01-eng.asp#Table_1_4

Despite some procurement process difficulties in 2007-2008, a new Request for Proposal was issued in December 2007 for the eight mid-shore patrol vessels approved in Budget 2006. The Coast Guard will finalize procurement strategies for the new vessels approved in Budget 2007 (four additional mid-shore patrol vessels, one offshore fisheries science vessel and one offshore oceanographic science vessel) and begin the procurement process in 2008-2009. The delivery of the first mid-shore patrol vessel is targeted for 2009-2010. Similarly, the first new offshore fisheries science vessel is expected to be delivered in 2011.

From the December 2007 RFP:
http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/dpr-rmr/2006-2007/inst/dfo/dfo10-eng.asp

Progress Report and Explanations of Variance: An RFP for MSPV detailed design and construction was issued 8 Nov 2006. Federal Budget 2007 approved funding for 4 additional vessels for C&P, for a total of 12 vessels. Proposals from Industry have been received and are under evaluation. Delays have been caused by the extended period required for evaluation due to clarifications required by the evaluation team.

At the same time the same page has under "Major Milestones":

Contract Award     Oct 2007 [!!! emphasis added]
Commence Construction of First Vessel    April 2008
First Vessel Delivery    Oct 2009
Delivery of 4 Maritime Security Vessels and 8 Fleet Renewal Vessels    May 2011

Go figure, but things sure don't seem to be going anywhere fast.

Mark
Ottawa

[gunnz23]

I am pretty sure there has been no contract handed out to any yard yet as there has been some legal disputes on the past now cancelled tendering process. That legal stuff must be cleared before they can hand a contract to another yard. Yeah I'll believe 2010 when I see one sailing past. 

[MarkOttawa]

Back to the drawing board:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/index.php/topic,78466.msg747363.html#new

"[The Conservative government] has also cancelled a tender call for the purchase of 12 mid-shore patrol ships for the Coast Guard."

Mark
Ottawa