Author Topic: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities  (Read 341243 times)

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1125 on: October 10, 2012, 22:48:18 »


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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1126 on: October 13, 2012, 16:08:12 »
So, AirBus supplies sthe aircraft, Discovery Air does the maintenance, CAE and Thales provide the simulators and avionics; So, does that mean the aircrew and SAR Techs will still be military?
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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1127 on: October 13, 2012, 20:35:11 »
So, AirBus supplies sthe aircraft, Discovery Air does the maintenance, CAE and Thales provide the simulators and avionics; So, does that mean the aircrew and SAR Techs will still be military?

I'm guessing it would be similar to the Cormorant and IMP deal.

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1128 on: October 13, 2012, 21:00:34 »
Has DND signed off on contracted maintenance?  Is this move something that might end up disqualifying Airbus/EADS before any competition begins?  Seems pretty risky to team up for something that might not even be wanted/needed. If the RCAF keeps blue-suit maintenance, Discovery is out of the picture.

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1129 on: November 28, 2012, 20:43:35 »
The latest - more than one airframe?
Quote
Defence Minister Peter MacKay has opened the door to replacing Canada's aging fixed-wing search-and-rescue fleet with other kinds of planes.

"We've broadened the specs to include the possibility of a mixed fleet," MacKay told the House of Commons defence committee Tuesday.

The public works department has given airplane manufacturers until Dec. 21 to express interest in bidding on the project to replace Canada's fleet Buffalo and Hercules search-and-rescue planes.

MacKay was coy when reporters asked him whether he officially backed continuing with a mixed fleet of planes for search and rescue.

"I think that's a question now that has to go to Public Works, as they're the ones now that are consulting with industry and seeing what's available on the market with regard to our operational needs," MacKay said as his communications assistant tried to pull him away ....
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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1130 on: November 28, 2012, 21:44:23 »
The latest - more than one airframe?

Got to explore all the options. We wouldn't want to rush anything now would we! ::)

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1131 on: December 14, 2012, 21:01:25 »
Another update on the "industry engagement" process - another draft RFP expected early in the new year for industry comment - via MERX from the attached amendment:
Quote
.... The purpose of this amendment (007) is to notify Industry that the FWSAR Secretariat will continue to share information after the closing date of this LOI (21 December 2012).

To continue with Industry Engagement, the FWSAR Secretariat will publish a new Letter of Interest (LOI) in early 2013. The purpose of this new LOI will be to continue sharing elements of the "Draft RFP" in multiple releases, allowing Industry to review and provide comments before the issuance of a complete Draft RFP ....
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Hey, why not consider the Osprey too?
« Reply #1132 on: January 07, 2013, 18:41:05 »
Quote
A pair of leading U.S. aircraft-makers is urging Ottawa to think outside the box as the government prepares to revive a long-stalled program to replace the country's search-and-rescue planes.

Boeing and Bell Helicopter, partners in the V-22 Osprey, plan to enter into the competition the tilt-rotor aircraft that can fly like a plane, but also hover like a helicopter.

In an unusually candid statement, company officials expressed concern that the revolutionary aircraft's suitability for search-and-rescue might not be appreciated under the government's approach to the program.

Robert Dompka, a senior executive at Bell Helicopter, says the firm would like to see "extra criteria" added to the planned $3.1-billion procurement.

"We believe the full value of the V-22 would not be ascertained with the way the requirement is currently structured," he said in an interview.

He says the plan is weighted toward replacing legacy aircraft, the 50-year-old C-115 Buffalos and nearly four decade-old C-130 Hercules, rather than looking to the future.

Dompka says Bell would like to see defence planners take a "broader perspective" and consider alternative ways of conducting missions, such as using an aircraft that can search, arrive at a scene, hover and conduct a rescue.

Right now, the Canadian air force uses a fixed-wing plane to search and then has to call in a CH-149 Cormorant helicopter to carry out the rescue.

Kathy Anthony, a senior executive at Boeing, says the V-22 brings a whole new look at search-and-rescue and would be invaluable in saving lives.

"It reduces the time for survivors to reach safety and their (hospital) treatment," she said.

The program, which ambled along in fits and starts for a decade, is still a long way from delivering aircraft because the government has conducted two rounds of consultations with industry.

Last year, the government told contractors a tender call had been delayed until spring of 2013.

Government officials were reluctant to comment on the latest suggestions ....
The Canadian Press, 7 Jan 13
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Offline MCG

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1133 on: January 09, 2013, 23:35:25 »
... and here is what it might look like:

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1134 on: January 10, 2013, 07:18:47 »
I am waaaayyy out of my lane but I find the idea exciting. The operational history of the V-22 leaves me lukewarm but the idea seems to have merit. Edit: I don't know what I am talking about.

Who wants to dampen my enthusiasm with some cold hard reality?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 11:29:34 by NinerSix »
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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1135 on: January 10, 2013, 10:25:22 »
operationally in Iraq the V-22 kicks *** -- fast in and out.

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1136 on: January 10, 2013, 11:11:15 »
Who wants to dampen my enthusiasm with some cold hard reality?

Its too new and cutting edge, we're not allowed to have those things. We get second hand or 30 year old designs.

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1137 on: January 10, 2013, 11:28:46 »
operationally in Iraq the V-22 kicks *** -- fast in and out.

I stand corrected. This sounds promising!

Quote
Its too new and cutting edge, we're not allowed to have those things. We get second hand or 30 year old designs.

Oh. Well.  Hum. Yeah. Now I have a sad.  :'(
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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1138 on: January 12, 2013, 00:44:21 »
Sign me UP!!

Real-life CPL (fixed-wing), Multi-IFR, recently applied for DEO pilot...  we'll see.

BUT, if selected/accepted, I'd be honored to strap my butt into that beast and blast off into the always-friendly weather where rescues occur! Too new? Relatively untested? Dubious record? HUMBUG!  lol

For SAR, that thing would rock! I can't imagine a better platform to replace the Buffalos.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but right now I understand Buff's only in use outta Comox?  **IF** we acquired the Osprey, or whichever fixed-wing SAR a/c, is it planned to replace more than just Buff's?  And thus be operated out of more than just Comox?

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Prepare to engage industry (again).... ENGAGE!
« Reply #1139 on: January 29, 2013, 06:53:23 »
This from MERX:
Quote
.... The purpose of this Letter of Interest (LOI) is to continue to share information as part of the Industry Engagement Strategy in the context of the Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Aircraft Replacement (FWSAR) Project. By sharing additional information, the intent from the FWSAR Secretariat is to seek industry
feedback to allow the Government of Canada to better understand what industry has to offer and to help the FWSAR project team progress the definition work.

Feedback from Industry may be used to support Canada's decision-making process such as finalizing its requirements in an effort to assist in improving project documentation prior to official release as part of any eventual Request for Proposal (RFP).

FWSAR WEBSITE
http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/stamgp-lamsmp/svtvn-rscfw-eng.html

(....)
Not much more detail in the bid package attachment here (Google Docs).
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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1140 on: January 31, 2013, 21:22:21 »
An update:  potential bidders can ask for a video to learn more - see attached bid document amendment ....
Quote
.... As requested by Industry, the FWSAR PMO has produced an educational video that is intended to provide a better understanding of the current daily operations at a primary FWSAR unit in Canada. This 20-minute video, called "A Day in the Life of a FWSAR Crew" was filmed at 8 Wing Trenton, Ontario, utilizing a CC130H aircraft, which is the only aircraft available at the 8 Wing Trenton to perform fixed wing SAR operations. The video should be used in conjunction with other documentation provided to Industry to obtain a more comprehensive understanding of the fixed wing SAR operations in Canada ....

FWSAR WEBSITE
http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/stamgp-lamsmp/svtvn-rscfw-eng.html

FWSAR INDUSTRY ENGAGEMENT RULES
http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/stamgp-lamsmp/rei-ier-eng.html

Let the industry engagement continue .....
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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1141 on: January 31, 2013, 21:56:09 »
An update:  potential bidders can ask for a video to learn more - see attached bid document amendment ....
FWSAR WEBSITE
http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/stamgp-lamsmp/svtvn-rscfw-eng.html

FWSAR INDUSTRY ENGAGEMENT RULES
http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/stamgp-lamsmp/rei-ier-eng.html

Let the industry engagement continue .....

Thanks for all the updates. As a SAR guy this is exciting stuff. I am hoping they don't drop the ball on FWSAR like they did with many aspects of the Cormorant (which I love btw). Oh, and if any industry or military decision makers are reading this, we would like whatever it is in yellow...bright beautiful yellow!

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1142 on: January 31, 2013, 22:10:37 »

For SAR, that thing would rock! I can't imagine a better platform to replace the Buffalos.


I've got to say, as the guy underneath working on patients I am opposed to the V-22. We have major issues with the downwash of a Cormorant as it is(dropping trees on Sar Techs and victims, flipping stokes etc) and the Osprey appears to be much worse. I am curious to see what 'helo' applications the V-22 could be used in, and is capable of, if any. (hoisting, water work etc.)  All that aside, I love the looks of that thing!

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1143 on: February 01, 2013, 20:45:24 »
... and here is what it might look like:

That, my friend, looks seriously awesome.  ;D

Now, how the hell are we going to persuade the Land of Oz to buy some of these beauties?

EDIT:  But taking into account what HWYH said in the previous post, dealing with some major downdrafts from two turboprop engines would be a problem.

Then again, wouldn't it be possible to hover a lot higher than a Cormorant hovers?  Or is that just as unsafe?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 20:55:11 by Fred Herriot »
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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1144 on: February 02, 2013, 13:23:35 »
I've got to say, as the guy underneath working on patients I am opposed to the V-22. We have major issues with the downwash of a Cormorant as it is(dropping trees on Sar Techs and victims, flipping stokes etc) and the Osprey appears to be much worse. I am curious to see what 'helo' applications the V-22 could be used in, and is capable of, if any. (hoisting, water work etc.)  All that aside, I love the looks of that thing!

It would be a mistake to assume regular helicopter-mode usage.  It would be first and foremost a 'fast' mover getting on scene, and vertical mode used in extremis, so the slightly higher downwash (second-hand opinion based on first-hand feedback from AFSOC PJs) compared to the Cormorant platform would be considered acceptable, were Primary RWSAR not responsive enough to a specific situation.

Regards
G2G

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1145 on: February 02, 2013, 20:43:40 »
"It would be a mistake to assume regular helicopter-mode usage."

Agreed. Which is why I am curious to what the proposed vertical applications entail.

"It would be first and foremost a 'fast' mover getting on scene, and vertical mode used in extremis,"

What would the vertical mode in extremis entail? Landing/take off only? Hoisting?

"so the slightly higher downwash (second-hand opinion based on first-hand feedback from AFSOC PJs) compared to the Cormorant platform would be considered acceptable"

I guess it depends on who is doing the considering...


Good points G2G, I am looking forward to hearing about the proposed V-22 applications in domestic SAR. Who knows, maybe I'll even become a fan.


« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 20:57:33 by HappyWithYourHacky »

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1146 on: February 02, 2013, 22:56:26 »
Quote
I guess it depends on who is doing the considering...

The PJs and other operators.  Maybe CF SAR Techs would think differently, not sure?

My discussion with guys who've worked 53s, 47s, 60s, 22s, etc... is that they all have their own quirks and characteristics.  They mention that the 22 actually has a bit of a calm area directly beneath the centre hatch when fast roping, spy-rigging and recovering.


Regards
G2G

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1147 on: March 25, 2013, 20:16:00 »
An update:  potential bidders can ask for a video to learn more - see attached bid document amendment ....
Quote
.... As requested by Industry, the FWSAR PMO has produced an educational video that is intended to provide a better understanding of the current daily operations at a primary FWSAR unit in Canada. This 20-minute video, called "A Day in the Life of a FWSAR Crew" was filmed at 8 Wing Trenton, Ontario, utilizing a CC130H aircraft, which is the only aircraft available at the 8 Wing Trenton to perform fixed wing SAR operations. The video should be used in conjunction with other documentation provided to Industry to obtain a more comprehensive understanding of the fixed wing SAR operations in Canada ....
FWSAR WEBSITE
http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/stamgp-lamsmp/svtvn-rscfw-eng.html

FWSAR INDUSTRY ENGAGEMENT RULES
http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/stamgp-lamsmp/rei-ier-eng.html

Let the industry engagement continue .....
The latest - expect a Request for Proposals in "late summer 2013" - a bit more in this latest bid document update here (Google Docs).
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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1148 on: March 26, 2013, 10:49:30 »
 US firm to take over Duke of Cambridge's helicopter fleet

The Bristow Group, an American company, is expected to be unveiled on Tuesday as the winner of the multi-billion pound contract to take over the service from 2015.

The anticipated announcement to the London stock exchange ends 70 years of search and rescue operations by the RAF and Royal Navy, who have saved thousands of lives both at sea and off mountain tops.

The contract, which is due to last from 2015 until 2026, is thought to be worth more than £3bn.

It is understood the firm, headquartered in Texas, has plans to replace ageing RAF and Royal Navy Sea King helicopters with modern Sikorsky S-92s and AgustaWestland 189s.

The Ministry of Defence’s distinctive fleet of yellow Sea King helicopters, which the Duke flies as a search-and-rescue pilot, were already due to be retired by March 2016.



Reports on Monday night suggested that as a result the government had concluded that search and rescue should therefore be contracted out.

The technology is at such an advanced stage that the US State Department had to give its approval for it to be used in Britain, Sky News reported.

Sole responsibility for Britain’s search and rescue was transferred to the Department for Transport that began a procurement process for the private sector to provide civilian crews on a 10-year contract.

When the privatisation was announced in 2011, The Daily Telegraph reported that the Duke privately lobbied David Cameron to save the service.

At the time aides refused to confirm whether the Duke had lobbied the Prime Minister on the future of the Search and Rescue Force.

A Clarence House spokesman referred inquiries to the MoD on Monday night.

A Department for Transport spokesman said: "We are due to make an announcement soon." Spokesmen for the MoD and the company were unavailable.

Bristow, which already provides transport services in Britain, to ferry oil-rig workers to and from North Sea platforms, also operates in parts of Europe, Asia, North America, Australia and Africa.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9953757/US-firm-to-take-over-Duke-of-Cambridges-helicopter-fleet.html

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #1149 on: March 26, 2013, 12:30:58 »
Oh, my God!  That is utterly insane!  Actually putting a vital service like SAR into civilian hands?!

Hope to God it doesn't happen up here!
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