Topic: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

[RiggerFE]

The Buff's airframe is rock solid. It needs new engines and better props. The avionics are in the process of being updated, but could use more than the "light" project being approved. The landing gear is unique on the Buff as it takes a hell of a pounding on STOL landings, but over all they perform fine. The big complaint crews have is that it's not pressurized, I don't think there is an easy fix for that. If we were to put our 6 Buffs up for sale, they would be bought up in a heart beat. The 2 civi Buffs up north  are in constant demand.

[MarkOttawa]

A post at The Torch:

Buffalo tempest rather overdone
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2008/05/buffalo-tempest-rather-overdone.html

Mark
Ottawa

[eurowing]

Some of the article is accurate, some is not.  Even in the small world of Buffalo's, ours are unique amongst them given the engine varient and propeller varient we use.  Much of the problem is our procurement process.  We often wait months for parts, causing us to rob from one ac to another.  This is not unique to our fleet or our military, nor is it a new problem, but it certainly makes the techs work more than required. 

I cannot view the blog.  Filtered out.

If anyone thinks we (or Ottawa) don't know Viking exists they are clearly talking out of their lane.

[kj_gully]

Slap my backside and call me a donkey! you mean our technicians have been working from before dawn until well after midnight to just keep one or on good days 2 of the 5 Buffalo in Comox (plus the one constantly at Field Aviation) flying, when all they had to do was call the good folks at Viking (who btw, just put out classified ads in the little Comox papers designed to poach qualified Devhavilland technicians away from the CF to help build Twin Otters) and presto, all our problems go away? Wow, are we ever stupid. Hey, I have an idea. What we should do is contract out all our Buffalo maintenance to Viking. That way, we free up our technicians to leave the CF, and Viking can pay them low wages because they already have a pension! I am sure a company striving to turn a profit will be much better able to provide our 24-7- 365 maintenance requirement than the Forces ever could. Hmm this is starting to sound eerily familiar....

[kj_gully]

still tapping our toes, arms crossed, waiting for ANY announcement. just one more thing perogietion does to the armed forces......... I was so hoping this session would yield a firm timeline.

[E.R. Campbell]

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail, is an article indicating that something is coming early in the new year:
--------------------
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081212.wplanes13/BNStory/politics/home

Ottawa readies tender for search and rescue planes

STEVEN CHASE

From Saturday's Globe and Mail
December 12, 2008 at 11:05 PM EST

OTTAWA — The Harper government is readying itself to tender a multi-billion dollar contract for replacing Canada's aging search and rescue planes – evidence the Tories are putting more emphasis on military matters beyond Afghanistan as the clock ticks down on Canada's commitment there.

“There is no greater priority right now for the armed forces. Domestically, we need those aircraft,” Defence Minister Peter MacKay said in an interview.

The next step is obtaining cabinet approval to proceed with a contract, he said, calling it a “top priority” for ministers when they reconvene.

“We're hopeful we're going to move on that early in the new year. What I asked our department to do was accelerate this.”

Mr. MacKay said Ottawa intends to “move as quickly as possible in contracting” for up to 17 planes to replace the 41-year-old Buffalos that patrol the Rockies and coastal British Columbia, as well as the aging Hercules on the East Coast.

The minister said the government is determined to ensure the purchase of these new aircraft fares better than delay-plagued efforts to procure new maritime helicopters.

“I do not want to find ourselves in any situation similar to what happened with the maritime helicopter program. That can't be replicated and there are some hard lessons that were learned,” Mr. MacKay said of efforts to replace the Sea King helicopters that began under the former Liberal government.

The Harper government took office in February of 2006 with a “Canada first” defence strategy that emphasized domestic protection and a promise to replace search and rescue planes. But the intensifying war in Afghanistan quickly shifted their military focus abroad.

Meanwhile, however, the Buffalo planes, which entered service in the late 1960s, have been plagued by breakdowns, a shortage of parts and frequent downtime for repairs.

Although the former Liberal government laid out plans to replace them, the Conservatives have so far primarily focused military equipment spending on items useful for the war in Afghanistan.

This week, however, Canada made it clear it remains determined to pull combat troops from Afghanistan in 2011 even though U.S. president-elect Barack Obama is looking for NATO and non-NATO allies to expand commitments there.

“President Obama should be looking to countries other than Canada,” Mr. MacKay said, adding that Canadians would nonetheless remain “fully engaged” in Afghanistan until combat soldiers begin pulling out in July of 2011.

Mr. MacKay said he'd hoped to seek cabinet's approval to proceed with a contract for new planes before Parliament recessed for Christmas – but “political circumstances intervened.”

Ottawa has already set money aside for the planes, which are expected to cost about $3-billion including maintenance deals, and Mr. MacKay said his department is “in dialogue with companies that would be capable of building these.”

Procurement industry sources speculate the military favours Alenia North America's C27J Spartan aircraft.
--------------------

Can anyone shed any light on who or what the “procurement industry sources” might be? Retired commodores and colonels? Alenia lobbyists? Anyone?

… Bueller?

… Anyone?

[Good2Golf]

...and other industry sources will say some prefer the Bombardier Q400, while others will say EADS/CASA 295, and so on, and so on...

The thing about "quoting" non-attributable facts is that the writer doesn't have to prove the statement's validity.

Anyone can ATI the FWSAR Statement of Operational Requirements and see what  the CF objectively states is the extant operational requirement.  I wouldn't be surprised if many have already.

G2G

[MarkOttawa]

The Globe's story editorializes egregiously in blaming delays on Afstan, ignores the real history (giving the previous Liberal government a free pass), and makes a stupid error about where SAR Hercs are based.  MND MacKay, for his part, plays political silly buggers.  A post at The Torch:

Speeding up new fixed-wing SAR aircraft acquisition--why?
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2008/12/speeding-up-new-fixed-wing-sar-aircraft.html

Mark
Ottawa

[kj_gully]

Hang around morning brief @ 442 Sqn for a week, and you may be less cynical.  I don't care  about why, so long as it happens.

[MarkOttawa]

And now from the Ottawa Citizen (reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act):

DND mulls sole-source contract worth $3B
Cabinet may balk at deal to buy U.S.-made planes
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/mulls+sole+source+contract+worth/1088892/story.html

The Defence Department is looking at proposing to cabinet a multibillion-dollar sole-source contract for the purchase of new search-and-rescue aircraft.

The plan would see the C-27J, an Italian aircraft to be built in the U.S., as the preferred plane for the $1.5-billion Canadian Forces fixed-wing search-and -rescue (FWSAR) project. Another $1.5 billion would be spent on long-term maintenance for the aircraft.

Although the C-27J, built by Alenia, is not being used by other countries in a primary search-and-rescue role, the Canadian air force favours the plane because of its range and speed. Defence Minister Peter MacKay is said to be involved in the latest initiative, but that does not guarantee cabinet will approve of such a deal.

The plan to replace the military's aging Buffalo search-and-rescue planes had stalled over the last five years, but Mr. MacKay recently said the program will now be a top priority.

"As Minister MacKay has noted, these aircraft are a critical component of Canada's home guard and, simply put, we need to have them," Jay Paxton, the minister's press secretary, said yesterday. "The minister's goal is to procure FWSAR early in the new year. Beyond that, it is premature to speculate on the exact nature of the aircraft."

Under consideration is a procurement using what is known as an Advance Contract Award Notice, or ACAN. That gives aerospace firms a limited amount of time, usually 15 to 30 days, to respond with a counter-proposal and convince the government they have a product that could compete with the Defence Department's choice, in this case the C-27J.

The use of ACANs have been criticized by some in the industry, as well as by opposition members of Parliament who argue it can undercut the bargaining position of the government since it gives a firm advance notice that its product has been selected.

But the Canadian Forces has had success with the process, which it used to purchase C-17 transportation aircraft from the U.S. The same process was used for the purchase of new Chinook helicopters, but that deal has run into difficulties. The process was started in the summer of 2006 and negotiations are still ongoing.

The latest development on the search-and-rescue aircraft has surprised Alenia's main competitor, Airbus Military, which produces the C-295 aircraft.

"We're caught off guard by the current initiative calling for an ACAN," said Martin Sefzig, Airbus's director of Canadian programs. "After five years of no evaluation and very little discussion, they now go for an ACAN. No aircraft has been tested. Why?"

Airbus Military highlights the C-295 as a proven plane with more than 60 in service, including in a search-and-rescue role.

Some aerospace industry insiders question whether the ACAN procurement method will survive cabinet scrutiny. There is bound to be objections raised by firms such as Bombardier, which had previously proposed the Canadian-built Dash-8 for the search-and-rescue program.

My comments at The Torch:

Fixed-wing SAR: The C-27J after all?
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2008/12/fixed-wing-sar-c-27j-after-all.html

Mark
Ottawa

[kj_gully]

I wonder if this has anything to do with the recent convenient instances of "queue jumping" our gracious US allies have allowed recently? I believe the US has selected the C27J to replace their sherpa?

[geo]

Heh... I can see it now... Select the Short 360 (Sherpa) & people will start Bombardier bashing all over again.

If the C27J is what the airforce wants for their FWSAR aircraft then that is the aircraft that we should get.  Going to Airbus (or Aliena) for political considerations IS NOT the route to follow...

[thunderchild]

I agree lets get the plane the airforce wants and needs.  Here is an Idea to save money "if it would" on a per airframe purchase, buy enough to be used by the Canadian Coast Guard for things like fisheries and pollution patrols. I don't know how many airframes we would need for this but it would remove the pressure on the Aurora fleet and it's replacement.  The MPA could then spend more time watching shipping and doing  patrols.  It could also provide transport support capacity in emergencies.  What do you think?

[CDN Aviator]

buy enough to be used by the Canadian Coast Guard for things like fisheries and pollution patrols.

They already have shiny DASH-8s fitted with some nice gucci surveillance gear.

remove the pressure on the Aurora fleet and it's replacement. 

 

Maybe you need to read up on the NASP...........In between PAL and TC, they already take plenty of work.

The MPA could then spend more time watching shipping and doing  patrols. 

Why ?

We already spend plenty.

[MarkOttawa]

thunderchild: Take a look at this post at The Torch:

A civilian maritime patrol aircraft fleet?
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/11/civilian-maritime-patrol-aircraft-fleet.html

Mark
Ottawa

[MCG]

I agree lets get the plane the airforce wants and needs. 

I'd be careful here.  Our military has a fairly established history of wanting Brand X when it is not only different from what we need, but something that fails to meet our needs.  One of the nice things about competition (aside from appeasing the Treasury Board, government, opposition, industry and Canadian voters) is that it provides a venue through which industry must prove to us which product best meets our requirements (our needs as we've put them into the RFP).

Let the Air Force get what they need.

[kj_gully]

I would even go furhter, "Get the Airforce what it needs, as long as it isn't so unique as to be unsupportable"

[Blackadder1916]

It seems that Viking Air may be anticipating a business opportunity.
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Viking Proposes Resurrection Of DHC-5 Buffalo
http://www.avweb.com/avwebbiz/news/VikingProposesResurrectionDHC5_Buffalo_199455-1.html
By Russ Niles, Editor-in-Chief  December 23, 2008

Earlier this year Viking Air, of Victoria, B.C. Canada resumed production of the de Havilland Twin Otter and now it has its sights set on an even more ambitious project. The company, which owns the type certificate to seven de Havilland models, is proposing to start building the DHC-5 Buffalo, a large twin-engine utility aircraft with ultra short takeoff and landing capability and a rear cargo door that accommodated bulky cargo. The aircraft has been the backbone of the Canadian Forces' fixed wing search and rescue fleet for decades but the military is now looking for replacements for the 40-year-old aircraft. Viking President Dave Curtis says the most affordable answer is an updated Buff. "The requirement to replace the present fleet is not based on a lack of ability for the Buffalo to do the job, but simply due to the aging of the aircraft," Curtis said.

Curtis said other countries have expressed interest in a modernized Buffalo, which would include more efficient, more powerful Pratt and Whitney Canada PW150 engines, glass cockpit with enhanced vision and NVG capability. There are at least two Buffaloes in commercial service in Canada's north and Viking says there is a potential market for civilian versions of the aircraft. Viking is proposing to phase in the new Buffaloes by upgrading existing aircraft first. New aircraft would be built at Viking's facilities in Victoria and Calgary.

[MarkOttawa]

Blackadder1916: A post at The Torch:

Buffed up?
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2008/12/buffed-up.html

Mark
Ottawa

[thunderchild]

Would the same assembly technique be used  for a new buff as with the Twin Otter? ( parts cut in BC and moved to Calgary for assembly) Or would it be fabrication and assembly in Calgary?

Merry Christmas.

[Zoomie]

As it stands - unless Viking dramatically changes the design of the original DHC-5 Buffalo - nothing they make will be sufficient.

a) too slow;

b) not pressurized;

c) insufficient range; and

d) design is outdated.

The Buff was designed to be an intra-theatre tactical lift aircraft.  If Viking wishes to pitch that role to the CF, I am all for it.  It does not meet the needs of our frugal Airforce and its FWSAR replacement program.

Sorry Viking, too little too late.

[thunderchild]

I'm no expert so I'll just ask the questions from the pro's, Do you think that the design of the aircraft would allow for such major changes?

[Baden Guy]

As it stands - unless Viking dramatically changes the design of the original DHC-5 Buffalo - nothing they make will be sufficient.

a) too slow;

b) not pressurized;

c) insufficient range; and

d) design is outdated.

The Buff was designed to be an intra-theatre tactical lift aircraft.  If Viking wishes to pitch that role to the CF, I am all for it.  It does not meet the needs of our frugal Airforce and its FWSAR replacement program.

Sorry Viking, too little too late.

Amen to that. I was in Summerside when we got the Buff as the replacement for the Albatross. Albatrosshttp://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/site/equip/historical/albatrosslst_e.asp
As "an intra-theatre tactical lift aircraft" it might have been OK. As a SAR replacement on the east coast it was inferior to the Albatross in
range, weight it could carry, nav package etc. I know the nav package was improved but what we really wanted was Herc's like the US Coast Guard was using.
The C-27 looks very interesting.

[MarkOttawa]

A post at The Torch by Babbling Brooks--politics, politique; pork, porc:

Putting the push on for Viking Air
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/01/putting-push-on-for-viking-air.html

Mark
Ottawa

[geo]

A post at The Torch by Babbling Brooks--politics, politique; pork, porc:
Putting the push on for Viking Air
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/01/putting-push-on-for-viking-air.html
Mark
Ottawa

Problem with dealing with Viking Air is that, while they might have the design rights to the DeHaviland family of aircraft.. they don't have the forms and jigs needed to go into production TODAY.  Notwithstanding the delays we've already seen for replacement aircraft, Viking Air tooling up for production would probably delay new aircraft production for another couple of years..... VS a C27J that is already in production.