Author Topic: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities  (Read 150923 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Blackadder1916

  • Milnet.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 52,900
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,704
Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #575 on: April 14, 2008, 11:01:28 »
Antique search planes to be replaced in 2014; critics call them Tories' Sea Kings
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/04/13/pf-5275276.html
Quote
By Murray Brewster, THE CANADIAN PRESS  April 13, 2008
 
OTTAWA - Canada's geriatric fleet of fixed-wing search and rescue aircraft, originally ordered replaced five years ago, will have to keep flying until at least 2014 and possibly longer, federal budget documents have revealed.

The air force has been struggling to keep its 40-year-old, twin-engine Buffalos in the air along the West Coast, where their slow speed makes them ideal for searching mountain ranges.

Opposition critics say the unacceptable delay in replacing the six aircraft - which face frequent downtime because of a looming shortage of spare parts - makes a mockery the Conservative government's self-titled Canada First defence strategy.

"It's laughable," said New Democrat defence critic Dawn Black, a British Columbia MP.

"Search and rescue is becoming the orphan-child of the Canadian Forces in terms of equipment."

The air force relies on both the Buffalo and an aging flight of C-130 Hercules cargo planes for fixed-wing search. In addition, there 14 CH-149 Cormorant helicopters, which have had a spotty in-service record because of a shortage of spare parts.

Black said the Conservatives' procrastination over the Buffalo has started to look a lot like the former Liberal government's decade-long puttering replacement program for Sea King helicopters.

"They are just so preoccupied with the war in Afghanistan that nothing else really registers," said Black, whose party was adamantly opposed to the extension of the Afghan mission.

The Defence Department's report on plans and priorities for the new budget year says the Buffalo replacement project will only proceed into its definition phase this year, with the delivery of new aircraft not expected until 2014-15.

The new chief of air staff, Lt.-Gen. Angus Watt, said at his swearing-in ceremony last summer that a proposal for new fixed-wing search planes would go before the federal cabinet "soon."

The air force had done contingency planning to keep the Buffalos flying until 2015, but officials said last fall that no firm decision had been made because there was concern about a dwindling supply of spare parts.

In order to carry on until then, air staff planners said they would have to purchase retired Brazilian air force Buffalos to cannibalize.

The Conservatives promised in the last election campaign to replace the Buffalos with 15 brand-new aircraft. The pledge came one year after the former Liberal government announced it was spending $3 billion to buy new search planes - a promise that couldn't be fulfilled before the defeat of Paul Martin's government.

One of the aircraft-makers that has been waiting five years for the replacement project to get under way says Canadian aerospace companies could end up being hurt by a prolonged delay.

Aleina North America, a subsidiary of Italian-owned Alenia Aeronautica, has been trying to convince the Defence Department to look at its C-27J Spartan.

The company recently won a major contract with the Pentagon, and president Giuseppe Giordo said they have been talking with potential Canadian part suppliers.

"The program has already been delayed so long," Giordo said in an interview.

"The Canadian government has obviously decided to proceed with more pressing programs, related to Afghanistan, such as the C-17 (heavy-lift planes) and the C-130-J (medium-lift aircraft). But clearly one day or another the Canadian government will have to take care of its domestic needs."

Giordo said the current fleet is old and he wonders whether it can hold on until 2014-15.

The air force is proceeding with a life-extension program on the Buffalos that is expected to cost around $75 million. The work will focus on replacing the engines, strengthening the airframes and replacing the landing gear.
Whisky for the gentlemen that like it. And for the gentlemen that don't like it - Whisky.

Online E.R. Campbell

  • Retired, years ago
  • Milnet.ca Subscriber
  • Milnet.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 173,340
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,801
Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #576 on: May 12, 2008, 12:21:12 »
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Ottawa Citizen, is an article by David Pugliese about the SAR aircraft:

 http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=0a4aee03-4de4-4052-9f48-da4ae7edd66f
Quote
DND to patch aging rescue planes as replacements put on back burner
Buffalos to be upgraded to fly until at least 2015, five years after they were supposed to be retired

David Pugliese, The Ottawa Citizen

Published: Monday, May 12, 2008

The Defence Department will upgrade the radios and other avionics equipment on its aging Buffalo search-and-rescue planes to keep them flying until at least 2015, five years past when they were supposed to be retired.

This latest move signals that the program to replace the 40-year-old aircraft, key to search and rescue on the west coast and in parts of the Rockies, is no longer a priority, say defence industry officials.

The air force strategy for 2008, obtained by the Citizen, shows that new search-and-rescue planes won't arrive until 2015 at the earliest and won't all be in place until 2017.

That means the air force is going to have to make do with the Buffalos, first purchased in 1967 and scheduled to retire in 2010.

Those aircraft are already facing mechanical and technical problems and in December the air force ran out of spare propellers for the planes.

Military officials say it is difficult to acquire parts for the aircraft, based at CFB Comox in British Columbia, since the plane is no longer in production and only a few organizations around the world continue to operate them.

The Defence Department will proceed with what it is calling the "Buffalo Avionics Life Extension -- Lite," which will upgrade various systems on the planes. Some of the instruments now in the Buffalo do not conform to current civilian aviation standards, potentially limiting where the planes can fly in civilian airspace, pilots have said.

The Defence Department expects to have the first upgraded aircraft ready by January of next year.

The estimated cost of the project is $4.6 million, defence spokeswoman Krista Hannivan wrote in an e-mail. "Proven off-the-shelf technologies are being purchased through Field Aviation, of Calgary -- the prime component contractor for the CC-115 -- and integrated into the fleet," she added.

The upgrade will replace outdated aircraft electronic equipment and bring the Buffalo in line with modern aviation electronics standards to take the aircraft to 2015, the e-mail noted. The project will include new radios, instrument landing system receivers, emergency locator transmitters and flight data recorders, among other equipment.

"Of course, modernizing search-and-rescue aircraft is essential to supporting the air force's no-fail mission in providing search and rescue services to Canadians," Ms. Hannivan wrote.

Some previous news reports have indicated there are plans to upgrade or replace engines on the Buffalos, but defence officials could not comment on that.

The air force is also looking at an upgrade to keep some of its older Hercules aircraft flying until new search-and-rescue aircraft arrive in the 2015-17 timeframe, according to the air force's 2008 strategy.

In a January message to air force personnel, the service's commander, Lt.-Gen. Angus Watt, said acquiring a new search-and-rescue aircraft to replace the Buffalos and Hercules "is another high priority for me. We will manage and maintain our current Hercules and Buffalo fleets so that they can continue to perform this vital role until a new aircraft enters operational service."

In September 2003, then-chief of the defence staff Gen. Ray Henault announced that the $1.3-billion purchase of new search-and-rescue planes was the top equipment priority for the military. In the spring of 2004, the Liberal government said it was fast-tracking the project. Military officials said they would approach industry in September 2004 to begin the competition. The first aircraft was supposed to be delivered sometime in 2006.

Little has happened in the meantime. In the past, air force officials have blamed the lack of action on the fact that the Afghanistan mission is dominating most of the military's efforts these days. In addition, air force officers say acquiring new Chinook helicopters and C-130J aircraft is their new priority.

The issue of ongoing funding problems for the air force and the lack of action on purchasing new search-and-rescue aircraft came up in the House of Commons several weeks ago after questions were asked by NDP MPs Catherine Bell and Dawn Black.

Defence Minister Peter MacKay accused the NDP of not supporting Canadian troops and of being "in the Communist corner."

© The Ottawa Citizen 2008

As I read this thread there are pros and cons to both the originally proposed contenders (C27J and C295) and other possible contenders (C130n) and there is a school of thought that says that the C115 Buffalo is uniquely suited to our specific SAR tasks.

In his thread I learn that Viking Air owns the design and drawing packages for the Buffalo.

Is buying a new fleet of Canadian made Buffalos an option? Is it even possible?


Edit: typo
« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 12:43:47 by E.R. Campbell »
If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.
John Stuart Mill, On Liberty (1859)
----------
Like what you see/read here on Army.ca?  Subscribe, and help keep it "on the air!"

Offline geo

  • Milnet.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 24,250
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,604
Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #577 on: May 12, 2008, 12:41:19 »
Viking Air purchased all the DeHaviland designs some years ago... Beaver, Twin Otter & Buffalo

Problem with anyone tooling up for a new fleet of Buffalos is that, we'd probably be the only client for the aricraft - making the unit cost of each plane a very expensive proposition...  Might be wrong but I think everyone else has phased out their Buffs - for lack of spare parts...
Chimo!

I have been turned into a ferret by the resident witch!!
And back again..... what a ride!

Online NFLD Sapper

  • Mentor
  • Milnet.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 135,722
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 6,543
  • SQN Ops and Trg NCO
Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #578 on: May 12, 2008, 12:48:56 »
Not sure on that geo but according to Wikipedia,

Quote
Operators
 Abu Dhabi
 Brazil
 Cameroon
 Canada Canadian Forces
 Chile: Chilean Air Force (Retired)
 Democratic Republic of the Congo (previously  Zaire)
 Ecuador
 Egypt
 Indonesia
 Kenya
 Mauritania
 Mexico: Mexican Navy
 Oman: Oman Police Air Wing
 Peru Peruvian Air Force (Retired)
 Sudan
 Tanzania
 Togo
 United States: United States Army
 Zambia
 
CHIMO!
First in, Last out
Sappers Lead the Way

Just tell your wife she owes your life to some Muddy Old Engineer,
Some dusty, crusty, croaking, joking Muddy Old Engineer
#75 | Rank: 114 | Cbt Exp: 1,525,030 | Msns: 1,886

Offline geo

  • Milnet.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 24,250
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,604
Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #579 on: May 12, 2008, 15:36:56 »
Many have had them but few continue to use em.

You'll find that the US flew the DHC4 Caribou VS the DHC5 Buffalo...

Quote
http://argent.canoe.com/infos/canada/archives/2007/10/20071022-072854.html
Le Brésil et le Canada sont les deux seuls pays au monde à encore utiliser ce modèle particulier de CC-115. Il a été impossible de rejoindre les dirigeants du ministère de la Défense nationale responsables du matériel afin de savoir s'ils avaient tenté d'exploiter l'option brésilienne pour obtenir des pièces de rechange.

Let,s face it, these birds are long in the tooth and it's only because of our stubborn procrastination that we are continuing to fly the Buffs.  Other countries with a smaller industrial capacity will prolly have had to push em off to the scrap yard a long time ago...

Chimo!

I have been turned into a ferret by the resident witch!!
And back again..... what a ride!

Offline inferno

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 78
Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #580 on: May 13, 2008, 21:21:55 »
So is the aircraft currently near the Terminal in Cold Lake right now a C-27? Because it looks from the back.. like a herc that had 2 engines removed?

Offline geo

  • Milnet.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 24,250
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,604
Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #581 on: May 14, 2008, 09:11:02 »
Inferno .... you've just described a Buffalo
Chimo!

I have been turned into a ferret by the resident witch!!
And back again..... what a ride!

Online NFLD Sapper

  • Mentor
  • Milnet.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 135,722
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 6,543
  • SQN Ops and Trg NCO
Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #582 on: May 14, 2008, 10:10:02 »
     
C-27


CC-115  Buffalo

Note the difference between a C-27 and the CC-115.

C-27 looks like a Herc while the CC-115 looks like a DASH-8 Aircraft to me (I.E. Similar body design except for the ramp).
CHIMO!
First in, Last out
Sappers Lead the Way

Just tell your wife she owes your life to some Muddy Old Engineer,
Some dusty, crusty, croaking, joking Muddy Old Engineer
#75 | Rank: 114 | Cbt Exp: 1,525,030 | Msns: 1,886

Online CDN Aviator

  • Milnet.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 122,600
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 14,821
  • BD3D Op
    • Association of Old Crows
Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #583 on: May 14, 2008, 10:41:18 »
Inferno .... you've just described a Buffalo

 ::)

Or a C-160 transal, or a C-27 or..........
"Ahh..... F**k it....weapon away !!"

"The only difference between peace and war is where we place our bombs" - General Curtis E. LeMay

Offline Haletown

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 10,265
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 704
Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #584 on: May 14, 2008, 10:52:00 »
::)

Or a C-160 transal, or a C-27 or..........

   . . . .  or an Aeritalia/Alenia G.222

Online CDN Aviator

  • Milnet.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 122,600
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 14,821
  • BD3D Op
    • Association of Old Crows
Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #585 on: May 14, 2008, 10:54:35 »
   . . . .  or an Aeritalia/Alenia G.222

Thanks for proving my point !
"Ahh..... F**k it....weapon away !!"

"The only difference between peace and war is where we place our bombs" - General Curtis E. LeMay

Offline Haletown

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 10,265
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 704
Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #586 on: May 14, 2008, 11:09:08 »
Thanks for proving my point !

Most welcome sir . .  always try to help.

That's actually a rare bird to be seen in North America  . .. the USAF only has ten (?) of them.

Offline inferno

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 78
Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #587 on: May 14, 2008, 23:34:32 »
They're French C160s.

And the Buff looks nothing like a Herc... unless you ignore the nose, tail, wings, cabin, fuselage, ramp, gear, cockpit...

Offline geo

  • Milnet.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 24,250
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,604
Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #588 on: May 15, 2008, 07:53:13 »
... but then again, you didn't specify that they weren't Canadian aircraft.
Chimo!

I have been turned into a ferret by the resident witch!!
And back again..... what a ride!

Offline Haletown

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 10,265
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 704
Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #589 on: May 15, 2008, 14:31:42 »
They're French C160s.



  If you are referring to the USAF aircraft in the picture above  in post # 582 . .  it is a  G222  or C27 in USAF livery.

USAF never operated the 160's and those engines aren't RR Tynes. 


Offline inferno

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 78
Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #590 on: May 15, 2008, 18:42:15 »
If you are referring to my post above, it is referring to my post above it.

Unless the Americans have started flying around with "Armée de l'Air" stenciled on the side of their aircraft?

Offline Haletown

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 10,265
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 704
Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #591 on: May 15, 2008, 19:11:31 »
If you are referring to my post above, it is referring to my post above it.

Unless the Americans have started flying around with "Armée de l'Air" stenciled on the side of their aircraft?

Well then we must be in agreement.

Because in the post I  referenced, #582, the C27, the one with the big  "US Air Force" stenciled on the fuselage, is clearly not a C160 . . .  engines being a clear Type marker in this  case and the picture clearly shows not a Tyne in sight.

I do miss the unique sound of the Tynes . . .  they were on the Fairchild 227's that Nordair used on DEW Line Lateral flights and when you heard them, it meant you were "getting out".  Fond memories.









Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Milnet.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 60,494
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,264
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #592 on: May 15, 2008, 19:34:23 »
Well then we must be in agreement.

Because in the post I  referenced, #582, the C27, the one with the big  "US Air Force" stenciled on the fuselage, is clearly not a C160 . . .  engines being a clear Type marker in this  case and the picture clearly shows not a Tyne in sight.

I do miss the unique sound of the Tynes . . .  they were on the Fairchild 227's that Nordair used on DEW Line Lateral flights and when you heard them, it meant you were "getting out".  Fond memories.

[OT alert]

Haletown, the Tyne did indeed have a characteristic noise, as did the Dart....funny how there are soem things you remember like that!

Cheers
G2G

[/OT alert]

Offline Haletown

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 10,265
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 704
Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #593 on: May 15, 2008, 19:50:51 »
[OT alert]

Haletown, the Tyne did indeed have a characteristic noise, as did the Dart....funny how there are soem things you remember like that!

Cheers
G2G

[/OT alert]

 ya know, now that I think about it  . .  those 227's had Dart's not Tynes . . . .  and they were a unique sound.

Nothing could vibrate your sinuses like a Dart  . . or a Tyne


Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Milnet.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 60,494
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,264
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #594 on: May 15, 2008, 19:53:52 »
...yup, the Vanguard had Tynes, though...

Offline MarkOttawa

  • Milnet.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 32,075
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,170
  • Two birthdays
    • Currently posting at Canadian Defence & Foreign Affairs Institute's "3Ds Blog"
Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #595 on: May 15, 2008, 22:41:39 »
From someone there, three French C-160 Transalls.

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline Haletown

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 10,265
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 704
Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #596 on: May 16, 2008, 08:28:29 »
From someone there, three French C-160 Transalls.

Mark
Ottawa

Mark, where is "there" ??

I'm missing something  . . . maybe it's the stupid pills I'm taking for the pain. . .  I have the great joy of having a Shingles attack so I'm not sure sometimes if I'm making any sense  :P


Offline MarkOttawa

  • Milnet.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 32,075
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,170
  • Two birthdays
    • Currently posting at Canadian Defence & Foreign Affairs Institute's "3Ds Blog"
Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #597 on: May 16, 2008, 08:36:52 »
Haletown: The Cool Pool.

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline Haletown

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 10,265
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 704
Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #598 on: May 16, 2008, 09:20:21 »
Haletown: The Cool Pool.

Mark
Ottawa

Clue 1  "there"

Clue 2  "The Cool Pool"

I need clue 3  . . . .   still confusing myself to a point of "no comprende senor"




Offline MCG

  • Directing Staff
  • Milnet.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 57,435
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,416
Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #599 on: May 16, 2008, 09:57:21 »
Clue 3:
So is the aircraft currently near the Terminal in Cold Lake right now a C-27?
They're French C160s.
From someone there, three French C-160 Transalls.