Author Topic: Sale of Canadian military uniforms on internet sparks investigation  (Read 79538 times)

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Offline Spartan

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Re: CADPAT for sale
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2004, 15:49:00 »
The thing about the knockoff / civie cadpat- looks like cadpat- but is a) not treated, b) is designed differently in terms of rank epaulettes, buttons etc,

 I think this one is real though... because of the velcro nametape, why people sell good kit I don‘t know.
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Offline Nerf herder

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Re: CADPAT for sale
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2004, 11:19:00 »
Not only the name tag but the Canadian flag tab on the left shoulder is there as well.

The pants have the velcro flaps for the front pockets...

It‘s real Symchyshyn  ;)

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Offline Nerf herder

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Re: CADPAT for sale
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2004, 11:50:00 »
The Crown is the Government.

The Queen is the head of state...so ultimatly it is her‘s to do with as she wants. None the less she is only a head of state in name only...part of the Commonwealth thing that all ex Brit colonies have with England.

She does not "rule" as her predasesors did centuries ago.

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Offline Infanteer

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Re: CADPAT for sale
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2004, 12:45:00 »
Major Baker,

There is a difference between the Crown and the Queen.  Monarchs come and go, but the crown is the bedrock of uninterrupted (well, there was a brief spat in the mid-1600s) rule spanning back to the eleventh century.

Perhaps you could draw a parallel with the relationship between the Constitution and the office of the President.  Anyhow, I‘ve picked up stuff like De Toqueville and The Federalist Papers of late and find my republican urges surfacing  :eek:  

As well, I am pretty sure the Queen does not recieve any money from her realm.  I believe the Windsor family is a wealthy old aristocratic family and has no need for a salary.  Can someone shed some light on that one.
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Offline portcullisguy

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Re: CADPAT for sale
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2004, 13:25:00 »
This is getting OT, but just to clear a few things up...

The Crown is the state, the state is the Crown.  Ministers (the word means "servant") act in the name of the Crown.  For their work, they are paid a salary out of Crown funds.  All of the revenue belongs to the Crown.  Once upon a time, in Robin Hood days of yore, this meant every gold farthing ended up in the proverbial castle keep.  However, for the last 300+ years, this has meant that the Crown is merely a figurative custodian for the stability of government and state, and the money does not actually "belong" to the monarch.

Think of it as the world‘s best janitor‘s job.

The Queen personally only receives money from the Duchy of Lancaster, and income from private investments.  Of the royal palaces, she owns only one: Balmoral.  It was inherited.  Although she is entitled to receive a significant portion of Crown revenue, she agreed long ago to turn this over to the government in exchange for a "Civil List" payment, which is a fraction of her income.  The Civil List payment goes to support those members of the Royal Family who do not receive income from the government, and have no comparable private wealth.  In addition, The Queen pays taxes, something she is not compelled to do legally.

This unique system, which has evolved over the years, is a curious and somewhat efficient result of the decades of struggle between the royalists and parliamentarians of years gone by, and in my opinion, includes the best elements of both sides.

This system attempts to give an air of legitimacy to the operation of government.  We do not elect judges, for example, because they should administer the laws impartially, not based on their desire for re-election.  We pay our taxes to the "Receiver General of Canada" not by name, but by office, because the person who holds the title won‘t get any richer by us paying taxes.  This same official pays out public service salaries, again to maintain impartiality.

And (bringing it back on topic), when I said CADPAT belongs to the Crown, this is both in a legal sense and in a figurative sense.  As members of the armed forces, we swear allegiance to The Queen, her lawful heirs and successors.  We took "the Queen‘s shilling" as the saying goes.  Although the government manages everything, and we must support the decisions of our lawfully and democratically elected representatives, we act in the Queen‘s name.  So, the CADPAT belongs to the Crown, which is the Queen, which is the government acting in her name.  The CADPAT, like everything else we are issued, does not belong to us individually, and we are only temporary caretakers of it, much in the same way that Ministers of state are temporary caretakers for their dept.  We are not entitled to make any personal gain from anything the Crown has given us, except our wages.

When I say "legal sense" I mean selling military stores is a criminal offence:

"s. 420(1) Military stores - Every one who buys, receives or detains from a member of the Canadian Forces or a deserter or an absentee without leave therefrom any military stores that are owned by Her Majesty or for which the member, deserter, or absentee is accountable to Her Majesty is guilty of [an offence]"

Agree or disagree, it‘s what we signed up for.
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Re: CADPAT for sale
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2004, 16:42:00 »
CADPAT was only recently made available for sale with the real deal. I know this cause I have a set in my room. Now before you go and say "oh it‘s a rip off" I‘ll tell you it isn‘t the guy I got it from is a long time provider for me and a good guy I have met personaly and not some joe schmo from ebay.ca and I know he wasn‘t ripped off cause he got if straight from the CF. I also know it‘s authentic cause it has the velcro for the flag and the tags inside, the velcro on the front pokets for the pants and everything. It‘s only been legal for a very short time so don‘t tell me I‘m wrong please  :D

Offline Hatchet Man

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Re: CADPAT for sale
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2004, 17:15:00 »
Yeah he most likely got it from the CF from the back of the supply warehouse from a pissed off supply tech.  If per chance you are telling the truth, and the combats you have in your possesion are the real deal, you very likely are in possesion of stolen government property, and as a civillian not authorised to possess the Real McCoy.

Offline a Sig Op

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Re: CADPAT for sale
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2004, 17:20:00 »
Quote
Originally posted by Tpr.Orange:
[qb] The fake cadpat isn‘t based on the NANO pixle design surrounding a maple leaf


that is how you know if the cadpat is real. Cadpat is based around a maple leaf design and the MARPAT used by marines is based around there logo of the eagle on a globe. Its extremely hard to spot but thats how you tell. [/qb]
A myth, perpetuated by some silly website...

The logo printed on MARPAT is actually a Marine Logo, very visible to the naked eye, without the aid of any imagination...

The sample on the website that perpetuated the myth wasn‘t large enough to show any of the logos. (Don‘t bother citing the website, I‘ve seen it myself).

 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=36068&item=2236652988&rd=1

This is an auction for some genuine MARPAT. Note the bottom right hand picture.
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Re: CADPAT for sale
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2004, 17:22:00 »
to quote my surplus suplier- "Now This came in my surplus so before I get a bunch of flame e-mails saying I cannot sell it please note that I buy all my surplus from the Canadian Government so they sold it to me fair and square and I have full rights to resell it to anyone I wish to. "

Offline Mike Secretan(Banned)

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Re: CADPAT for sale
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2004, 17:27:00 »
why would you want cadpat if your in air cadets?

Offline Hatchet Man

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Re: CADPAT for sale
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2004, 17:28:00 »
Right and surplus stores would not lie about something like that just so they could sell something.  Issue CADPAT is NOT authorized for civvies, because of the IR junk they put in it.

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Re: CADPAT for sale
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2004, 17:29:00 »
Quote
Originally posted by Mike Secretan:
[qb] why would you want cadpat if your in air cadets? [/qb]
Cause I admire the forces and wearing them makes me feal special cause I feal like one of you guys kinda like a little kid playing war (although the uniform doesn‘t make me even close to the kind of person you people are, but I can dream can‘t I?)

Offline axeman

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Re: CADPAT for sale
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2004, 18:34:00 »
i‘ve already started to see cadpat turn up in the crown assets sales/ auctions for months now . thats here in edmontton and we were among the last of the cf ARMY to get it .
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Offline Mike Secretan(Banned)

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Re: CADPAT for sale
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2004, 21:03:00 »
Quote
Originally posted by corporal-cam:
wearing them makes me feal special
are you kidding me?!?!?! you got some freaking issues kid. do you like pretending to be some sort of commando? and people wonder why people like you get beat up...

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Re: CADPAT for sale
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2004, 21:10:00 »
Quote
Originally posted by Mike Secretan:
[qb]  
Quote
Originally posted by corporal-cam:
wearing them makes me feal special
are you kidding me?!?!?! you got some freaking issues kid. do you like pretending to be some sort of commando? and people wonder why people like you get beat up... [/qb]
Lol, I‘ve never been beat up and the closest I‘ve come to being beat up was being punched once and before I had a chance to punch back about 40 people swarmed the other guy and did it for me, I guess I‘m just that well liked  :D  And I said I wanted to be a soldier, I said nothing about being a commando and the fact that you would jump on me leads me to believe you have some deep seeded psycological problems, maybe from you being beat up as a kid. Anyways this is way off topic, if anyone wants to make strange accusations towards my popularity then send an IM so the rest of us can deiscuse the legal sale of CADPATS.

Offline Jason Bourne

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Re: CADPAT for sale
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2004, 21:18:00 »
Well said..theres maturity  :)
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Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: CADPAT for sale
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2004, 22:49:00 »
I have seen Marines wearing MARPAT, and I was shown the USMC symbol on the trouser leg, which is a digital image tucked away, and yes you can see it. I just laughed.

I have seen CADPAT ruck covers sold here in shops still bearing the CDN NSN, etc on the tag and bag.

Also CDN kevlar helmets with CADPAT covers too, and not single items but in qty, so I doubt if its hot.

After being with some CDNs in 2002, I know they‘re pretty anal, not even trading for a bush hat, etc, so I know they are tight with their kit.

As for the term Crown ppty, or Crown land, that just means its Fed Govt ppty. Here the term is rarely used, and they tend to call things Commonwealth ppty, and CW land, etc. Yes we have kit nazis here too, as unrecovered kit is csotly thing, and you all know that.

As for being goods in custody of CADPAT uniforms, it would be a hard charge to prove, as even though its marked, one would have to prove intent, etc. Pretty tight deal. For sake of argument, say  some was bought at a gun show or garage sale, they bough such goods in confidence, maybe ecen getting a receipt for them.


Kind of like being in possession of that angle torch (flashlght) when you know you bought it, and your unit has them and is short some. Unless PTE bloggins seen you take such a torch with that scratch on the lense and you have it,m thats another story. But the whole thing in being possession of CF kit, such as 82 ptrn webbing, rucks, boots etc, tjhey have to prove you took that particular item from them, and its hard.

Back in 1989 I bought a C7 bayonet direct form the manufacturer, NELLA cutlery in eastern Canada.  Some MP asked me where I got it (almost an international incident). I told him I purchased it, he accused me of theft, and siezed it. I produced the receipt, and got an appogoly from him, and his SGT the same day. Seemed he was an over zealous CPL, who was clueless in what one can buy and not, and hence he was repremanded ( and so he should have) for it. I still have that bayonet.

So, if ther is genuine CADPAT out there, it does not necessarily mean its stolen.

Regards,

Wes
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Offline Lone Wolf AT

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Re: CADPAT for sale
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2004, 22:56:00 »
Why would you want one of our bayonets?  They‘re crap.
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Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: CADPAT for sale
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2004, 04:14:00 »
The C7 bayonet is a modified version of the US Viet Nam vintage M7, and its better than the M7 which is encountered along with the M9 here in Australia. There are so design changes to the Cdn one.

The C7 bayonet has a good stainless blade with improved grips, and the scabbard is light, and I think better than the M8A1 and the M10, which are also encountered here in the Australian Army.

What do I use? I use an issue M9 Australian contract, and so marked on the blade.

The US M9 is heavy and bulky, but it has a good wire cutter, a screw driver on the scabbard, along with two bottle openers on the cross guard, and is superior to the original KCB176 series of bayonet from Austria, which was originally trialed by the ADF for the F88 and M16A1‘s.

I have over 200 bayonets in my collection, and the C7 Nella is a part of that now.

So why do you think the C7 bayonet is crap? Its stronger and better steel than the US equivilant. So what type of bayonet do you prefer for the C7 then?

Any bayonet when abused will break, as I have seen M9‘s snap in two, along with the M7 also.

Ack.

Regards,

Wes
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Offline Mike Secretan(Banned)

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Re: CADPAT for sale
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2004, 10:06:00 »
Quote
Originally posted by corporal-cam:
[qb]  
Quote
Originally posted by Mike Secretan:
[qb]  
Quote
Originally posted by corporal-cam:
wearing them makes me feal special
are you kidding me?!?!?! you got some freaking issues kid. do you like pretending to be some sort of commando? and people wonder why people like you get beat up... [/qb]
Lol, I‘ve never been beat up and the closest I‘ve come to being beat up was being punched once and before I had a chance to punch back about 40 people swarmed the other guy and did it for me, I guess I‘m just that well liked   :D   And I said I wanted to be a soldier, I said nothing about being a commando and the fact that you would jump on me leads me to believe you have some deep seeded psycological problems, maybe from you being beat up as a kid. Anyways this is way off topic, if anyone wants to make strange accusations towards my popularity then send an IM so the rest of us can deiscuse the legal sale of CADPATS. [/qb]
Then explain exactly when and where your wear your cadpat?....

Offline chrisp1j

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Re: CADPAT for sale
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2004, 10:53:00 »
In his house...does it matter?

The question is: is there any way to own CADPAT legally as an ordinary citizen?

The answer...no, as nothing is supposed to leave the system (they shred all the used CADPAT clothing, except helmet covers).

But who will stop you really (unless some off-duty MP sees you, or you wear it to an armoury)?
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Offline a Sig Op

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Re: CADPAT for sale
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2004, 10:57:00 »
Quote
Originally posted by Wesley H. Allen, CD:
[qb] I have seen CADPAT ruck covers sold here in shops still bearing the CDN NSN, etc on the tag and bag.
[/qb]
I‘ve never actually seen one of these... perhaps they were acquired and never issued? Or have I just not seen them?

 
Quote
[qb] Also CDN kevlar helmets with CADPAT covers too, and not single items but in qty, so I doubt if its hot.
[/qb]
The kevlar helmets are issued to everyone, even new recruits, who are still issued the old olive-drab uniforms. As such, there‘s more of them being damaged and declared surplus.

 
Quote
[qb] After being with some CDNs in 2002, I know they‘re pretty anal, not even trading for a bush hat, etc, so I know they are tight with their kit.
[/qb]
As in the old bush-hat or the new hat? As there should be lots of the old ones floating around on the surplus market... as to the new one, it‘s an excellent hat... if they are anything like me, they weren‘t being anal, they just love their cadpat field hat!
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Re: CADPAT for sale
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2004, 10:59:00 »
chrisp1j,

How do YOU know they shred all used combats? Do you work there? Or just know some guy who knows someone else, who heard from someone.....  :rolleyes:
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Offline willy

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Re: CADPAT for sale
« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2004, 11:20:00 »
There are certain articles of kit, mostly those considered to be attractive/gucci, for which the "replacement cost" you will be hit with upon loss will be substantially more than it actually costs to replace the item.  This policy was put in place to deter people from misappropriating kit.  One such item is the CADPAT field cap.  I saw a scale of issue list that included replacement costs on it one time, and if you lose your field cap, it ends up costing you about $90! (Now, that is from memory, and may be wrong, so I hope I don‘t annoy you too much by posting it, recceguy  :D ).  Half the reason I‘m still in the army is the replacement cost I‘m going to get hit with upon release for the bivy bag I lost as a Pte!  At any rate, the whopping replacement cost may well be why the soldiers in question didn‘t want to trade away their field caps.

Offline chrisp1j

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Re: CADPAT for sale
« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2004, 11:32:00 »
You‘re right, I did hear it from someone (very reputable mind you).

You explain where it all goes then.
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