Author Topic: Mali (merged - Canada's mission, sitreps, etc.)  (Read 96739 times)

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Offline ProtectAndServe

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Re: Mali (merged - Canada's mission, sitreps, etc.)
« Reply #350 on: January 30, 2013, 00:10:20 »
Rog

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Re: Mali (merged - Canada's mission, sitreps, etc.)
« Reply #351 on: January 30, 2013, 00:15:44 »
I see the point of that video. Is there even a point in that video?

You can always tell 2 REP from a distance at night: the Gitanes spark up after a notional deployment count. ;D
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Mali (merged - Canada's mission, sitreps, etc.)
« Reply #352 on: January 30, 2013, 08:52:05 »
I see the point of that video. Is there even a point in that video?

Some people like to see what a combat jump looks like. Although with no one shooting at you it might seem to be a hollywood jump. 8)

Offline ObedientiaZelum

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Re: Mali (merged - Canada's mission, sitreps, etc.)
« Reply #353 on: January 30, 2013, 08:57:08 »
I see the point of that video. Is there even a point in that video?

What are you asking?
We ask only to serve
✠ Ave Imperator ✠

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Mali (merged - Canada's mission, sitreps, etc.)
« Reply #354 on: January 30, 2013, 16:42:27 »
Wall Street Journal
Why France Can't Fight:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324624404578257672194671036.html

I can think of a few other reasons too!  ;D
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline 57Chevy

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Re: Mali (merged - Canada's mission, sitreps, etc.)
« Reply #355 on: January 30, 2013, 18:28:29 »
I see the point of that video. Is there even a point in that video?

Simple,
We of the Brotherhood like this stuff. :nod:

Offline Jungle

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Re: Mali (merged - Canada's mission, sitreps, etc.)
« Reply #356 on: January 30, 2013, 19:51:39 »
Simple,
We of the Brotherhood like this stuff. :nod:

Yep...

Because until you've stepped off an airplane in flight, from 800 ft in complete darkness, wearing 50 lbs of parachutes and 70 lbs of kit...

You just haven't lived !!
When all is said and done,
It's what's done that counts.

Offline Jungle

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Re: Mali (merged - Canada's mission, sitreps, etc.)
« Reply #357 on: January 30, 2013, 20:00:21 »
Wall Street Journal
Why France Can't Fight:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324624404578257672194671036.html

I can think of a few other reasons too!  ;D

Interesting... the Telegraph seems to think otherwise:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/qi/8080884/Quite-Interesting-the-QI-cabinet-of-curiosity.html

Quote
HISTORY

Which country is the most successful military power in European history?

France. According to the historian Niall Ferguson, of the 125 major European wars fought since 1495, the French have participated in 50 – more than Austria (47) and England (43). Out of 168 battles fought since 387BC, they have won 109, lost 49 and drawn 10.

The British tend to be rather selective about the battles they remember. Every English schoolboy was once able to recite the roll call of our glorious wins at Crécy (1346), Poitiers (1356) and Agincourt (1415), but no one’s ever heard of the French victories at Patay (1429) and (especially) at Castillon (1453), where French cannons tore the English apart, winning the Hundred Years War and confirming France as the most powerful military nation in Europe.

And what about the Duke of Enghien thrashing the Spanish at Rocroi late on in the Thirty Years War in 1643, ending a century of Spanish dominance? Or the siege of Yorktown, Virginia, in 1781, when General Comte de Rochambeau and American forces prevailed? The British always prided themselves on superiority at sea, but knew they could never win a land war on the Continent.

France’s achievements help to explain another French “military victory”. Whether it is ranks (general, captain, corporal, lieutenant); equipment (lance, mine, bayonet, epaulette, trench); organisation (volunteer, regiment, soldier, barracks) or strategy (army, camouflage, combat, esprit de corps, reconnaissance), the language of warfare is French.

 ;)
When all is said and done,
It's what's done that counts.

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Re: Mali (merged - Canada's mission, sitreps, etc.)
« Reply #358 on: January 31, 2013, 06:54:00 »
Don't worry, folks, the blue berets/helmets'll sort it all out once the big guns leave and the bad guys can seep back in....
Quote
France's defence minister has said he backs the idea of sending a UN peacekeeping force to Mali.

Jean-Yves Le Drian's comments come as the French troops continue to secure the most northerly town of Kidal.

France has deployed some 4,500 troops during the three-week offensive against militant Islamists in the north of Mali - an area the size of France.

But is now preparing to hand over the towns it has captured to an African force, expected to number 7,700.

So far about 2,000 African soldiers, mainly from Chad and Niger, are thought to be on the ground in Mali.

It will be the job of the African Union-backed force, the International Support Mission to Mali (Afisma), to root out the al-Qaeda-linked insurgents that have fled into the desert further north.

The BBC's Christian Fraser in Paris says the UN Security Council had previously been uncomfortable about deploying a force under a UN mandate, but support is growing.

Envoys believe it would easier to monitor and prevent human rights abuses if the UN could pick and choose which national contingents to use, he says ....
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Re: Mali (merged - Canada's mission, sitreps, etc.)
« Reply #359 on: January 31, 2013, 07:04:44 »
"France’s achievements help to explain another French “military victory”. Whether it is ranks (general, captain, corporal, lieutenant); equipment (lance, mine, bayonet, epaulette, trench); organisation (volunteer, regiment, soldier, barracks) or strategy (army, camouflage, combat, esprit de corps, reconnaissance), the language of warfare is French."

It's funny that during Second Language Training, I was taught that the (admittedly Quebecois) French word for "leadership" is.....leadership. 

Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline Jungle

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Re: Mali (merged - Canada's mission, sitreps, etc.)
« Reply #360 on: January 31, 2013, 07:17:16 »
It's funny that during Second Language Training, I was taught that the (admittedly Quebecois) French word for "leadership" is.....leadership.

The word "leadership" does not translate in one simple word in french, and all Francophonie countries use the english term, not only Québec.

The word "watermanship" also does not translate directly into french, yet I can swim and ride a canoe...
When all is said and done,
It's what's done that counts.

Offline 57Chevy

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Re: Mali (merged - Canada's mission, sitreps, etc.)
« Reply #361 on: January 31, 2013, 07:23:56 »
The word "leadership" does not translate in one simple word in french, and all Francophonie countries use the english term, not only Québec.

Actually it does

direction or/ou commandement
however 'leadership' is the more accepted terminology.

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Re: Mali (merged - Canada's mission, sitreps, etc.)
« Reply #362 on: January 31, 2013, 08:08:27 »
Wall Street Journal
Why France Can't Fight:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324624404578257672194671036.html

I can think of a few other reasons too!  ;D


See my comments, and how they relate to Canada, here. Whether the French are good soldiers (my opinion: generally, yes, albeit too often very badly led) and whether French strategy is good (my opinion: generally, no, for the last 560 years, since about 1453) are matters for debate but what is not debatable is that France spends about 2.3% of its GDP on defence while Canada spends only 1.4%. The outcome is that France can have a foreign policy worth the name because it has the military means to act; but Canada(?) ... not so much. 
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Re: Mali (merged - Canada's mission, sitreps, etc.)
« Reply #363 on: January 31, 2013, 08:31:43 »
It appears, to me, from what little I can see in the media, that France has earned a great deal of goodwill in North Africa and respect around the world for its operations in Mali. All that will, I suspect, wither and die if France becomes involved in a protracted counter-insurgency campaign.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Mali (merged - Canada's mission, sitreps, etc.)
« Reply #364 on: January 31, 2013, 10:25:00 »
France has alot of experience in North Africa with excellent intel sources. Once the bad guys have been pushed back out of the towns,this will become an SF/Air Force show.The Taureg have already begun to negotiate with France/Mali so they arent crushed like their AQ foes will be.

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Re: Mali (merged - Canada's mission, sitreps, etc.)
« Reply #365 on: January 31, 2013, 11:26:31 »
It appears, to me, from what little I can see in the media, that France has earned a great deal of goodwill in North Africa and respect around the world for its operations in Mali. All that will, I suspect, wither and die if France becomes involved in a protracted counter-insurgency campaign.
:nod:

France has alot of experience in North Africa with excellent intel sources. Once the bad guys have been pushed back out of the towns,this will become an SF/Air Force show.The Taureg have already begun to negotiate with France/Mali so they arent crushed like their AQ foes will be.
The Tuaregs aren't friends of AQ ....
http://news.yahoo.com/tuaregs-seized-mali-towns-islamists-093208317.html
.... so there's a chance of two (Mali/France/African force and Tuaregs) piling on the one (AQ) - with the wild card being how much "autonomy" the Tuaregs are going to be allowed in their back yard:
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2013-01-31/france-s-says-mali-should-accept-some-touareg-autonomy

Interesting times, interesting cards France has been dealt .....
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Mali (merged - Canada's mission, sitreps, etc.)
« Reply #366 on: January 31, 2013, 11:28:44 »
No doubt, subtle efforts to separate the 2 have been underway for sometime as well.

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Initial estimate of the bill
« Reply #367 on: January 31, 2013, 15:47:48 »
Highlights mine....
Quote
The total cost of providing a transport plane to aid international efforts in Mali is an estimated $18.6 million, says one of Canada's top soldiers.

Of that cost, $11.7 million is directly related to the mission itself and the remainder is the regular cost of keeping the C-17 Globemaster ready to go, Maj.-Gen. Jonathan Vance told a House of Commons committee Thursday.

Canada had initially agreed to provide the massive transport plane for one week to assist the French government in transporting soldiers and supplies to the West African country.

The French military launched an intervention there Jan. 11 to oust Islamists from power in the north of the country and to stop their march south.

Canada later agreed to extend the contribution of the transport plane until the middle of February.

Since then, the French have been successful in pushing back the rebels and the United Nations is now considering a peacekeeping force to keep the peace in the north.

The total cost of the Canadian contribution mission won't be known until 60 days after it's over, Vance said.

Since the first flight on Jan. 17, the plane has flown 13 missions and moved more than 350,000 kilograms of cargo ....
The Canadian Press (via CTVnews.ca), 31 Jan 13
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Re: Mali (merged - Canada's mission, sitreps, etc.)
« Reply #368 on: January 31, 2013, 22:03:52 »
Civilization 1; Barbarians 0.

Intrepid citizens band together to save their heritage against the Islamists. Given the behaviour of the Isamists, it seems pretty easy to turn the population out against them (but most of the time, the population is disorganized while the Islamists are not only organized, but have the means and will to do violence against the population as well). Glenn Reynolds of Instapundit has documented some similar actions in Egypt, Islamic Brotherhood offices being torched and and so on. So long as civilized people continue to band together, barbarians will have a harder time of it. Build high trust neighbourhoods at home, you never know when you are going to need a helping hand:

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2013/01/30/intrepid-citizens-save-timbuktus-priceless-manuscripts/

Quote
Intrepid Citizens Save Timbuktu’s Priceless Manuscripts

Once again civilization survives barbarism: Timbuktu’s ancient literary treasures were not destroyed after all. In a classic example of how the uncertainty of war can make bad reporters of us all, local accounts apparently vastly exaggerated the damage done to the city’s legendary library. Not only was the place not burned to the ground—as the city’s mayor claimed—but the manuscripts themselves were removed from the library by Malians last year. The Daily Maverick reports:
 
Preservationists in Mali told Walt that a large-scale rescue operation was executed early last year and thousands of manuscripts were hauled out of the Ahmed Baba Institute [the name of the library that housed the manuscripts] to a safe house elsewhere. “Realising that the documents might be prime targets for pillaging or vindictive attacks from Islamic extremists, staff left behind just a small portion of them, perhaps out of haste, but also to conceal the fact that the centre had been deliberately emptied,” Walt said. . . .
 
Other reports now suggest just 2,000 manuscripts were kept at the Ahmed Baba Institute while a further 28,000 were transferred safely to Bamako last year. According to these reports, efforts to save the manuscripts began as soon as northern Mali fell to Tuareg rebels last year. So while some manuscripts may have been destroyed, or looted, by fleeing rebels, the bulk of the collection appears to have been saved.
 
Though of course the loss of even some of the the manuscripts is tragic, we are greatly relieved that the majority of the collection has been saved. We are also inspired by the example of decency and courage displayed by the citizens who saved these treasures. Civilization is a hard won victory, and it must be constantly reclaimed in the face of barbarism. It’s successes like these that give us hope and remind us that no matter how culturally different Malians are from us, we are all involved in the same fight.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

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Re: Mali (merged - Canada's mission, sitreps, etc.)
« Reply #369 on: February 01, 2013, 13:55:10 »
In an article in MacLean's magazine Michael Petrou suggests that the Mali adventure is very convenient for French President Hollande because it changes his well earned reputation as a timid, risk averse bureaucrat who is unwilling or unable to deal with France's many and varied problems.

Of course, if Mali turns into a quagmire, then Hollande will be seen as a timed, risk averse bureaucrat with deeply flawed strategic vision.  :dunno:
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Re: Mali (merged - Canada's mission, sitreps, etc.)
« Reply #370 on: February 01, 2013, 14:03:00 »
I think France sees this as their backyard and do nothing is not an option. I suspect that most of the other parties are in some sort of agreement about intervening. They are also clear about not overextending themselves and have been careful not to target the Tureaq main population centre. AQM sems to find itself suddenly alone.

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Mali (merged - Canada's mission, sitreps, etc.)
« Reply #371 on: February 01, 2013, 22:19:29 »
In an article in MacLean's magazine Michael Petrou suggests that the Mali adventure is very convenient for French President Hollande because it changes his well earned reputation as a timid, risk averse bureaucrat who is unwilling or unable to deal with France's many and varied problems.

Of course, if Mali turns into a quagmire, then Hollande will be seen as a timed, risk averse bureaucrat with deeply flawed strategic vision.  :dunno:

As much as I admire you Edward,this quagmire meme just doesnt fit the situation as we discussed at the outset. There is no comparison between North Africa and Afghanistan. We are the outsiders in Afghanistan but the French are on home ground so to speak.The local population of the former French colonies speak French which is a big advantage. The strategy I would follow is one of creating quagmire's for AQ and its affiliates.Iraq was one such killing ground.Afghanistan is another.My version of a quagmire would be invading Lebanon for example. A quagmire is a situation that you cannot extract yourself from.

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Re: Mali (merged - Canada's mission, sitreps, etc.)
« Reply #372 on: February 02, 2013, 19:46:37 »
I know I'm harping on the dangers of quagmire and, to France's credit, they have intervened in North Africa something like 40 times in the last 50 years and they either:

1. Understand when to leave; or

2. Are already in a quagmire, of sorts.

I will be very happy for Pres Hollande when (if), in a few weeks, he dusts of his hands, says, "OK, we killed a few unpleasant black folks and I've decided that we won so lets forget about whatever that place is and have a nice victory parade in Paris."

If he manages that I will hold him up as an example to the West. There's nothing wrong with periodic bouts of killing unpleasant foreigners; there's a lot wrong with declaring them to be peace loving allies and trying to make them democrats.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Re: Mali (merged - Canada's mission, sitreps, etc.)
« Reply #373 on: February 06, 2013, 06:42:20 »
House of Commons "take note" debate on Mali yesterday - Hansard transcript link here, Mali debate also attached (33 page PDF)

More from CBC.ca:
Quote
Members of Parliament took part in a four-hour 'take-note' debate on the conflict in Mali and Canada's contribution to the mission Tuesday night.

While 'take-note' debates are non-binding, they allow for MPs to make their views known in the development of government policy.

Bob Dechert, the parliamentary secretary to the minister of foreign affairs, kicked off the debate by saying this was "only one part" of the federal government's commitment to engage MPs on Canada's reaction to the conflict in Mali.

"It is our hope that we will find consensus on this matter," said Dechert.

To date, the federal government has contributed one C-17 military transport plane to help support the French military intervention in Mali at a cost of roughly $18.6 million to Canadian taxpayers.

The massive cargo-lifter was dispatched roughly three weeks ago and has completed 13 airlift missions to Bamako, the capital of Mali. Its mission is due to end Feb. 15.

Dechert reiterated that Canada's C-17 and the 40 troops deployed in support of the military transport plane's operations "have not been and will not be part of combat operations."

The Conservative MP said Canada's objective is to see Mali return to "a fully democratic and constitutional rule."

New Democrat MP Paul Dewar, who is his party's foreign affairs critic, said while the debate helps provide "much-needed oversight" of Canada's role in Mali, the government's position has been "inconsistent" with ministers sending "mixed messages."

"The government must be clear both about the purpose and level of commitment," said Dewar.

Interim Liberal leader Bob Rae said he got the sense the government was being very cautious about its engagement in Mali and wondered why the federal government would not keep the C-17 running as long as Canada felt it necessary "to protect the security of Mali, West Africa, Canada and the world," instead of setting a deadline ....
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 06:52:51 by milnews.ca »
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Re: Mali (merged - Canada's mission, sitreps, etc.)
« Reply #374 on: February 06, 2013, 10:15:43 »
Because deadlines are arbitrary and not set in reality? Do we pull out at a critical moment or do we assess the situation and determine if the need is no longer there. Or perhaps we pull out if the mission changes to one beyond the scope given. The Liberals have shown appalling lack of understanding of how the military fits into world affairs, I see the tradition continues.