Author Topic: Graduate Studies  (Read 5774 times)

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Offline Phobos

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Graduate Studies
« on: March 07, 2012, 22:15:28 »
        Is it possible to go through ROTP at R.M.C., receive a bachelor's degree and the immediately move on to graduate studies? Obviously, this would require the individual to increase their length of commitment to the forces since they are pursuing more education but, is it even possible? And if it is, how popular is this route to receive a graduate degree?

I'm looking to receive a Bachelors of Science degree in Physics at R.M.C. and then attend graduate studies at R.M.C. for their Master's of Nuclear Science or Physics program (still sitting on the fence about this decision).

Thanks in advance.

-Phoebe :cdn:
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Re: Graduate Studies
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2012, 22:20:14 »
I would think this outcome highly unlikely. The goal of RMC is to produce young officers capable of becoming "leaders of men (and women)", not professional students. Once working in your occupation, your branch may have a post grad programme you can apply to.
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Graduate Studies
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2012, 22:24:58 »
        Is it possible to go through ROTP at R.M.C., receive a bachelor's degree and the immediately move on to graduate studies? Obviously, this would require the individual to increase their length of commitment to the forces since they are pursuing more education but, is it even possible? And if it is, how popular is this route to receive a graduate degree?

I'm looking to receive a Bachelors of Science degree in Physics at R.M.C. and then attend graduate studies at R.M.C. for their Master's of Nuclear Science or Physics program (still sitting on the fence about this decision).

Thanks in advance.

-Phoebe :cdn:

I've seen this exact thing happen, however, it is not the normal course of things.  Normally, you would be expected to go into your career field for a few years and contribute to the CF before coming back for a Masters.  But, I reiterate, it does seem to happen the other way, too.

Online Melbatoast

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Re: Graduate Studies
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2012, 11:33:25 »
I've seen this exact thing happen, however, it is not the normal course of things.  Normally, you would be expected to go into your career field for a few years and contribute to the CF before coming back for a Masters.  But, I reiterate, it does seem to happen the other way, too.

I've seen it too, very recently.  I don't know the circumstances, but this individual went from UTPNCM undergrad to some other program post-grad immediately, without being employed (or presumably qualified) in occupation.  The particular post graduate program this person went into seems extremely relevant to the occupation, which is probably how it went down, plus the occupation is kind of clogged up (MARS).

Super sweet deal in my opinion, except for the front end career lag.

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Graduate Studies
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2012, 11:49:31 »
The one person I'm familiar with was ROTP MARS, who went immediately from his BA in Politics to the MA in International Relations at the Norman Patterson School (Carleton), without classification training. During his MA he transferred over to Int, did his qualification training, then served minimal obligatory time before releasing. He subsequently did a law degree and now makes a shitload of money in Virginia Beach.

Does it happen? Yes. Is it rare? Yes. Does the CF benefit?  :dunno:

Offline Rheostatic

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Re: Graduate Studies
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2012, 12:20:55 »
I read an article about a couple of guys who qualified as Rhodes scholars during their undergrad at RMC and proceded directly to masters programs.

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Graduate Studies
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2012, 12:24:04 »
        Is it possible to go through ROTP at R.M.C., receive a bachelor's degree and the immediately move on to graduate studies? Obviously, this would require the individual to increase their length of commitment to the forces since they are pursuing more education but, is it even possible? And if it is, how popular is this route to receive a graduate degree?

I'm looking to receive a Bachelors of Science degree in Physics at R.M.C. and then attend graduate studies at R.M.C. for their Master's of Nuclear Science or Physics program (still sitting on the fence about this decision).


I'm sure it would be a popular route to a graduate degree, but it is not a common occurrence.  Can it happen? Yes, but don't plan on it.  DAOD 5049-1 Obligatory Service contains the following
Quote
Simultaneous Periods of Obligatory Service

Prior to the completion of a period of obligatory service, members are not normally permitted to incur more obligatory service. The Director General Military Careers (DGMC) must approve any exceptions. In those cases, the new period of obligatory service will be added to the unexpired portion of the previous period of obligatory service. The two periods will be served consecutively and in the order in which they are incurred.

Members cannot serve a period of obligatory service while receiving education or training that will incur additional obligatory service. The original period of obligatory service will be extended by the period of subsidized education or training.

There are, however, exceptions to almost every rule.  During my career I knew a few officers who were able to immediately go from undergrad to graduate studies, however it seemed that they (if from RMC) usually went to a different institution - perhaps it was because they were "invited" and received (non CF) financial incentives (scholarships) to pursue that higher programme.  CFAO 9-33 (no longer available on the internet) was the regulation governing post-graduate education subsidization.  Annex B of that order deals with the scenario you describe and used to begin with; (my version is from an old OLTRS disk)
Quote
CFAO 9-33
ANNEX B --TRAINING ON SCHOLARSHIPS PROGRAMME

PURPOSE

1.   This annex prescribes the policy and procedures governing the
acceptance of post-graduate (PG) scholarships by officers of the Regular
Force following graduation from baccalaureate level university courses.

ELIGIBILITY

2.   For the purpose of this annex, eligibility extends to officers of the
Regular Force who are in their final year of baccalaureate study attending
a Canadian Military College or university under:

     a.   the Regular Officer Training Plan (ROTP) -CFAO 9-12;

     b.   the University Training Plan -Non-commissioned members (UTPM) -
          CFAO 9-13;

     c.   the University Training Plan -Officers (UTPO) -CFAO 9-40; or

     d.   special authority while on leave without pay (LWOP).

3.   Receipt of a PG scholarship by an officer of the Regular Force does
not automatically imply that the officer will be permitted by NDHQ to
proceed on such training.

4.   Eligibility to proceed on scholarship training will take into account:

     a.   the officer's academic and military records;

     b.   the military applicability of the PG course; and

     c.   the prestige associated with the scholarship.

5.   Preference will be given to those scholarships that are universally
recognized, such as the Rhodes scholarship.  As a further guide,
scholarships that will be considered by NDHQ will normally be those in the
high dollar value range that do not require the candidate to expend more
than six hours of work a week for the university concerned.  Scholarships
usually considered as teaching or research assistant-ships offered by
universities are, for purposes of the PG programme, not considered to be
prestigious and therefore are excluded.

ANNUAL QUOTA

6.   No specific quotas are established for PG scholarship training.
Attendance will be determined annually by NDHQ, based on the availability
of officers and current military requirements.
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Offline SentryMAn

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Re: Graduate Studies
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2012, 12:29:55 »
Pheobe;
The other side of this is why do a Under grad and then grad at the same university in the same discipline?  You will be essentially learning the same information from the same professors with the same sight on the topics.



Offline jwtg

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Re: Graduate Studies
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2012, 17:22:15 »
As has been stated many times, there are opportunities but they are few and limited to the most competitive students.  They are also subject to budgets, and to the discretion of your career manager.

There's been a few presentations (I haven't listened closely because at this point I'm mostly interested in simply completing my current undergraduate studies at RMC) where people have mentioned something called 'PGonscol' or something like that.  I believe it stands for post-graduate studies on scholarship, and as I understand it, you secure a place in a graduate studies program, secure scholarship funding, and hope your branch says that you can go.

So, the simplest answer is yes, it is possible.  There are opportunities you can inquire about and apply for, but they are far from guaranteed.  Make sure you're satisfied with the idea of finishing your undergrad and then training/working in your trade, because that is far and away the most common route through RMC.
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Offline Phobos

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Re: Graduate Studies
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2012, 23:34:50 »
Thanks for the comments everyone. If I don't end up being considered a competitive student for graduate studies, then I'll likely pursue it after my commitment to the forces. Though, that is still very long away and I may enjoy my trade so much I may believe a post grad degree may be unnecessary.

Again, thanks! everyone!

-Phoebe  :cdn:   
If you were to hand me a white flag, and asked me to surrender our freedom, I would fight the battle until I could no longer bleed, and then with my hands, I would draw on the white flag, two red bars and a maple leaf.

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Graduate Studies
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2012, 10:02:59 »
Quite a few officers continue on with grad studies after the initial recruiting/training dust settles and they've learned the gist of their job.

If you're not posted to a major city, there are numerous distance learning options available. There's also a graduate degree option tied to the Command and Staff College programme, although it's not in Nuclear Science.


Of course, by that point you may consider yourself a military officer with an interest in nuclear physics, rather than a researcher who wears a uniform to get schooling paid for.  ;)

Offline Phobos

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Re: Graduate Studies
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2012, 21:56:49 »

Of course, by that point you may consider yourself a military officer with an interest in nuclear physics, rather than a researcher who wears a uniform to get schooling paid for.  ;)

If you're trying to make the statement that I am just trying to get free schooling dear sir, you're sadly mistaken. I'm simply trying to pursue my major interests in life, both those related to the defence of this nation and to the advancement of my knowledge related to science.

Let me also add, If I'm not found worthy to attend R.M.C. I plan to reapply as an N.C.O. for Infantry.

-Phoebe  :cdn:
If you were to hand me a white flag, and asked me to surrender our freedom, I would fight the battle until I could no longer bleed, and then with my hands, I would draw on the white flag, two red bars and a maple leaf.

Offline MCG

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Re: Graduate Studies
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2012, 22:17:03 »
        Is it possible to go through ROTP at R.M.C., receive a bachelor's degree and the immediately move on to graduate studies?
Apparently there are a handfull every year (4 to 5 is the number that I was given from RMC last summer).  With all the students that start at RMC, that is not a significant number.  I would not recommend anyone plan to be one of those 4 to 5.

... I also question if this is really a good idea for an institution that is supposed to be launching officers into their careers.


Offline MJP

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Re: Graduate Studies
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2012, 22:29:22 »
Apparently there are a handfull every year (4 to 5 is the number that I was given from RMC last summer).  With all the students that start at RMC, that is not a significant number.  I would not recommend anyone plan to be one of those 4 to 5.

... I also question if this is really a good idea for an institution that is supposed to be launching officers into their careers.

Civi U ROTP (and UTPNCMs) are accepted as well.  I knew one that got accepted this year but turned it down for some good reasons.

Offline breezie

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Re: Graduate Studies
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2012, 21:58:23 »
It's called the Post-Graduate on Scholarship (PG on Schol) program, and it's only available to ROTP cadets (civi U or RMC). You apply early in your fourth year, and your standing is based on your grades in second (must be 75% average) and third (must be 80% average) years, plus your military ranking, your athletic score (if you pass your expres test you get full marks I believe), and your bilingualism profile. All these scores are made into one overall score, and you are ranked. The top 6 cadets will be offered their choice of studies (in Canada unless you win a prestigious external scholarship like the Rhodes), and the next 6 in the ranking will be told what they can study (based on their trades). Your trade has to approve of you doing your masters, some had to drop off the list later because they were told they were needed in their trade now rather than 2 years down the track. There were about 30 applications (from RMC and civi U) the year I applied (and got in the top 6). Even if you're ranked below the top 12 (there's only 12 spots a year), you may actually end up getting offered a spot because others turn it down for various reasons. If you go to RMC for your postgrad, you'll get an automatic DRDC scholarship. If you go to another university, you'll either need a "prestigious" scholarship from a list you'll be given, or any scholarship that's $10,000 or more per year of study is considered prestigious. It's not impossible to get approved for PG on schol, but most of the people who were approved had their grades in the very high 80s or 90s, so if you're not an academic superstar, it's unlikely you'll get one. Grad school is insanely hard (even compared to RMC life), so you need those high grades to be able to survive academically. In my program (at the Norman Paterson School of International Affairs), you can't have any grades below a B or you fail out of the program.

Hope that helps!

Offline breezie

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Re: Graduate Studies
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2012, 22:01:38 »
Oh, and regarding your contract, as the grad studies obviously adds time to your obligatory service, you'll be given the choice of signing for a 5 year or a 20 year contract. At least that's what everyone who got it my year was given - all but one signed the 5 year contract.