Author Topic: Challenger/"VIP" Jet/CF Chopper Use (CDS, others) [merged]  (Read 149495 times)

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Challenger/"VIP" Jet/CF Chopper Use (CDS, others) [merged]
« on: September 16, 2011, 08:11:49 »
Not good PR in this report, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/military-chief-used-vip-jets-for-flights-to-caribbean-nhl-cfl-games-ctv/article2168330/
Quote
Military chief used VIP jets for flights to Caribbean, NHL, CFL games: CTV

STAFF
Globe and Mail Update

Published Thursday, Sep. 15, 2011

Since 2008, Canada's top military commander has used government VIP aircraft to fly to sporting events, galas and a Caribbean holiday, racking up a bill of more than $1-million, CTV News is reporting.

Passenger logs requested by the broadcaster through the Access to Information Act provide details of several flights taken by General Walter Natynczyk, the Chief of the Defence Staff.

In January of 2010, for instance, a repatriation ceremony at CFB Trenton caused him to miss a flight to Saint Maarten Island, in the Antilles, for a cruise with his family. So, he took a government Challenger jet to the island, CTV reported, at a cost of $92,956.80.

Six months later, he used the plane to attend the Calgary Stampede with his wife. CTV cited records showing that the jet dropped them in Calgary, flew back to Ottawa empty, then returned to Alberta three days later to pick them up. The total cost was $200,000.

That fall, Gen. Natynczyk spent $121,550.70 to fly to the Grey Cup in Edmonton; on another occasion, in January of 2009, he and his family flew from Ottawa to Toronto to drop the puck at a Maple Leafs hockey game during the Canadian Forces Appreciation Night for $23,231.30.

In total, $732,366.50 went towards flights to attend hockey and football games in various cities across the country.

There were other bills for appearances at various events and fundraisers, including a Support Our Troops Gala in Edmonton in September of 2009 and True Patriot Love Foundation dinners in Toronto and Vancouver.

Gen. Natynczyk's office told the broadcaster that he tries to use commercial flights “whenever available and where his official travel schedule permits,” but that regular airline service “often doesn't provide the flexibility needed.” The flights, it noted, often take him to events where he is representing the Canadian Forces.

As for the excursion to the Caribbean, his office said it was “not deemed to be a personal trip” since his holiday has been delayed by work.


Anybody want to bet that this leads on several 'news' programmes -  not just on CBC?

- mod edit to add choppers to thread title -
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 10:48:59 by milnews.ca »
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Offline hamiltongs

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Re: Gen Natynczyk used VIP jets for flights to Caribbean, NHL, CFL games
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2011, 08:35:27 »
Not good PR in this report, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/military-chief-used-vip-jets-for-flights-to-caribbean-nhl-cfl-games-ctv/article2168330/

Anybody want to bet that this leads on several 'news' programmes -  not just on CBC?
I like how it's attributed to "Staff"; basically, no journalist with a recognizable name wanted to be associated with this POS story. The G&M has already bumped it down from top of the national section to a less prominent spot, and I don't believe it ran in the print edition.

An unappreciated part of how the media works is just how much leeway overnight "editors" (i.e. web page maintainers) have, and just how much their work gets scrutinized and revised once the grownups show up in the morning. I think we can look forward to this one disappearing quite quickly, to be honest.

Offline Kalatzi

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Re: Gen Natynczyk used VIP jets for flights to Caribbean, NHL, CFL games
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2011, 09:28:08 »
I like how it's attributed to "Staff"; basically, no journalist with a recognizable name wanted to be associated with this POS story. The G&M has already bumped it down from top of the national section to a less prominent spot, and I don't believe it ran in the print edition.

An unappreciated part of how the media works is just how much leeway overnight "editors" (i.e. web page maintainers) have, and just how much their work gets scrutinized and revised once the grownups show up in the morning. I think we can look forward to this one disappearing quite quickly, to be honest.

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Re: Gen Natynczyk used VIP jets for flights to Caribbean, NHL, CFL games
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2011, 09:36:06 »
It would be interesting to see what the operating costs were, vs the total costs.  Since the per hour cost DND reports frequently includes depreciation, plus crew time.

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Offline AERO2012

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Re: Gen Natynczyk used VIP jets for flights to Caribbean, NHL, CFL games
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2011, 09:37:23 »
Access to Information Act : 1
Entitlement                      : 0

Offline hamiltongs

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Re: Gen Natynczyk used VIP jets for flights to Caribbean, NHL, CFL games
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2011, 09:56:40 »
Access to Information Act : 1
Entitlement                      : 0
Context                            : -1

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Re: Gen Natynczyk used VIP jets for flights to Caribbean, NHL, CFL games
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2011, 10:00:44 »
Quiick, Quick, Shoot the Messenger!!!!! Shoot Them!!!!
When the messenger says they have a responsibility to be fair, balanced while maintaining context, it's only fair they get kicked when appropriate.

Also, has anyone seen a link where the obtained logs are shown, so we can get more context?

It would be interesting to see what the operating costs were, vs the total costs.  Since the per hour cost DND reports frequently includes depreciation, plus crew time.
Good point.
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Re: Gen Natynczyk used VIP jets for flights to Caribbean, NHL, CFL games
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2011, 10:14:18 »
Someone else said it before: They should make available the documents released they get from these access to information act so we can draw our own conclusion.

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Re: Gen Natynczyk used VIP jets for flights to Caribbean, NHL, CFL games
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2011, 10:21:16 »
Someone else said it before: They should make available the documents released they get from these access to information act so we can draw our own conclusion.

I agree, and while I'm at it, my small pea brain is telling me that someone who was left unsupervised for a few hours that felt the CF should be taken down a notch allowed this "article" to be published.  What better way than accusing the boss of something like this?
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Re: Gen Natynczyk used VIP jets for flights to Caribbean, NHL, CFL games
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2011, 10:23:48 »
Ho hum. The Mop & Pail back to their old, tired crappola :boring:
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Re: Gen Natynczyk used VIP jets for flights to Caribbean, NHL, CFL games
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2011, 10:34:20 »
The docs are available - but by request nly.  This serves everyone's interests:

The media, since few will ask for them, so they maintain their exclusive; and

The federal governemnt, since few will request them, meaning they don;t get a solid dose fo sunlight.  Note that I'm suggesting this as a general rule, not as a "in this case there's a smoking gun" assertion.
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Re: Gen Natynczyk used VIP jets for flights to Caribbean, NHL, CFL games
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2011, 10:40:50 »
IMO - Some people in the media like to create controversy where there is none.

As an example, when Adrienne Clarkson was the GG, she was hammered in the media for the spending, travel etc. Never mind that the office of the GG is the Queen's Rep in Canada and the one that gets to speak with all those foreign dignitaries and conducts award ceremonies in Rideau Hall. That doesn't seem to be important - just hammer them on their budget.
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Re: Gen Natynczyk used VIP jets for flights to Caribbean, NHL, CFL games
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2011, 10:44:46 »
The media, since few will ask for them, so they maintain their exclusive
And in the case of the media, when I ask about the idea, I get a "gee, that sounds like a neat idea".  In very few cases, they share, but in the overwhelming majority of cases, they don't.

.... when Adrienne Clarkson was the GG, she was hammered in the media for the spending, travel etc. Never mind that the office of the GG is the Queen's Rep in Canada and the one that gets to speak with all those foreign dignitaries and conducts award ceremonies in Rideau Hall ....
Not to mention generally goes where/when asked by the PM (not just Adrienne)....
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Gen Natynczyk used VIP jets for flights to Caribbean, NHL, CFL games
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2011, 11:13:23 »
Quote
The flights, it noted, often take him to events where he is representing the Canadian Forces.

Oh, so they were official appearances?

But let's ignore that little item, when we can imply he was doing it all on a whim.    ::)

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Re: Gen Natynczyk used VIP jets for flights to Caribbean, NHL, CFL games
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2011, 11:24:47 »
Oh, so they were official appearances?

But let's ignore that little item, when we can imply he was doing it all on a whim.    ::)

However, if there are more economical means available that meet scheduling requirements, they should be considered as well.


All of this also ignores that pilots have to fly to maintain proficiency; how many flights would have happened anyways with no pax just to keep pilots current?
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Re: Gen Natynczyk used VIP jets for flights to Caribbean, NHL, CFL games
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2011, 12:08:27 »
I guess the honeymoon is over.

CTV's Robert Fife is reporting this with his usual aplomb. Sound bite: flight to catch vacation cruise.

In three plus years, how many flights did he take?
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Re: Gen Natynczyk used VIP jets for flights to Caribbean, NHL, CFL games
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2011, 12:12:25 »
In many ways, this is the best way for the story to come out.   Parliament isn't sitting, and it's Friday, so the story will likely have no legs and disappear by next week.
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Re: Gen Natynczyk used VIP jets for flights to Caribbean, NHL, CFL games
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2011, 12:14:18 »
I guess the honeymoon is over.

CTV's Robert Fife is reporting this with his usual aplomb. Sound bite: flight to catch vacation cruise.

In three plus years, how many flights did he take?

How many days is he in Ottawa per year? Not many I'd wager.

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Offline john10

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Re: Gen Natynczyk used VIP jets for flights to Caribbean, NHL, CFL games
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2011, 13:25:04 »
I don't think I've ever seen a group of whinier people than Canadian soldiers, when it comes to the media.

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Re: Gen Natynczyk used VIP jets for flights to Caribbean, NHL, CFL games
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2011, 13:28:45 »
cops whine too.

The issue is a lack of accountability on the media's side. They dont do retractions on the internet or even the most basic of fact checking. When you are swaying public opinion you should be more responsible.
Posted again...thats six in six.

Offline Jim Seggie

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Re: Gen Natynczyk used VIP jets for flights to Caribbean, NHL, CFL games
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2011, 13:30:31 »
I don't think I've ever seen a group of whinier people than Canadian soldiers, when it comes to the media.

And where is this coming from? Were you around during the "days of darkness"?

Some, not all, of those in the media have an axe to grind...an agenda if you will, and seize on every opportunity, no matter how legitimate or illegitmate the story is, to put the boots to the CF.
Then it does not matter what the CF says...its lost in the scramble to crucify someone.


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Offline john10

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Re: Gen Natynczyk used VIP jets for flights to Caribbean, NHL, CFL games
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2011, 13:37:22 »
cops whine too.

The issue is a lack of accountability on the media's side. They dont do retractions on the internet or even the most basic of fact checking. When you are swaying public opinion you should be more responsible.
What are you saying? That they should retract the story? Pray tell, why? Because it offends the delicate sensibilities of some Canadian soldiers?

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Re: Gen Natynczyk used VIP jets for flights to Caribbean, NHL, CFL games
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2011, 13:47:04 »
And where is this coming from? Were you around during the "days of darkness"?

Some, not all, of those in the media have an axe to grind...an agenda if you will, and seize on every opportunity, no matter how legitimate or illegitmate the story is, to put the boots to the CF.
Then it does not matter what the CF says...its lost in the scramble to crucify someone.
The media are reporting a story about public expenses for travel by private jet. They did the same for the former GG a couple weeks ago. Big whoop. Did they misreport anything? No. Did they fail to provide context? No, they explained precisely which public functions he was attending, and in the case of the vacation, they explained that the use of a private jet was due to his attending the repatriation ceremony and being delayed by work. There is nothing wrong with the article. Nothing.

Canadian soldiers really need to tone down the baseless whining and self-victimization. It's unbecoming.

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Re: Gen Natynczyk used VIP jets for flights to Caribbean, NHL, CFL games
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2011, 13:47:16 »
The point is. In the grand scheme of things the items incurred were due to duties. He has functions to attend- and air crews need hours.

The media story is only news if you infer that it was because he is a jet setting playboy. Which he isn't. So it isnt NEWS. Which is what they are supposed to report.

You might be fine with having dirtbags through crap on what you do for a living but some of us dont like being covered in crap. The rest of us admit when we're wrong but stand up when we're right. I dont have delicate sensibilities- I have a sense of pride I've earned. Reporters, and you apparently, don't.

Where is the news story about how much toilet paper is used at CBC headquarters? There isnt one? Thats because it cant be used to stir the pot.
Posted again...thats six in six.

Offline Jim Seggie

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Re: Gen Natynczyk used VIP jets for flights to Caribbean, NHL, CFL games
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2011, 13:51:02 »
The media are reporting a story about public expenses for travel by private jet. They did the same for the former GG a couple weeks ago. Big whoop. Did they misreport anything? No. Did they fail to provide context? No, they explained precisely which public functions he was attending, and in the case of the vacation, they explained that the use of a private jet was due to his attending the repatriation ceremony and being delayed by work. There is nothing wrong with the article. Nothing.

Canadian soldiers really need to tone down the baseless whining and self-victimization. It's unbecoming.

Baseless whining....self victimization.....hmmmmmm
I'm too much of a gentleman to tell you what I really think of your answer.

Besides....we do have Freedom of Speech, do we not?
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